. (00:01):
Angela Weszely (00:05):
Welcome to Pro Grace on abortion, real Talk No Politics. I'm Angela Wesley, CEO, and co-founder of ProGracece. We are a community of people who want to have the conversation around abortion. Now, it's not currently happening in our churches because there's so much tension around the debate, and having a civil conversation is hard. The church is divided, but it's time to come together. And the way we'll do that is to model our approach after Jesus, not politics. If you feel like you don't really belong in either the pro-life or pro-choice camp, and you think surely Jesus has a better way than welcome to the progra community, a place you can belong.
(00:54):
When I first saw the Barbie movie last week, I was struck by all the connections to having new conversations about abortion in our churches, conversations that are not political, and that are really centered in God's equal value for all people. Now, you may or may not have seen the movie, and you may be wondering how I could make those connections, but I just was impacted by the film because it was personal for me. I grew up in the seventies and eighties. I'm still a woman today leading in an environment where maybe that isn't always the case. And so a lot of the experiences of women in the film I could connect to. I actually think that's an important conversation piece for those of us in the church. And I wanted to speak to the importance of both men and women seeing the film from my opinion, and not letting the controversy keep us from engaging in this cultural moment.
(01:49):
I know a lot of people say the film is political. I didn't see that in the film either time that I saw it. There's definitely some different worldviews. And obviously anytime we see a film, you know, it, it, just because we don't agree with some of it doesn't mean there aren't some really beautiful things in it. That's the thing about art. it can can touch us in certain places. We don't have to agree with everything. And I felt that way about the film. There was just so much that resonated with me because it's art, because they were able to just really creatively illustrate what a Barbie land would be like, and illustrate what it would be to enter the real world from that, that I think is really important for this reason. I think one thing that blocks us from having better conversations about abortion is we have absorbed some messages from our culture for thousands of years in terms of how men and women should relate to each other, and who's more important and how we listen to each other.
(02:49):
That's just stuff that we don't even realize we've internalized, but it's there from the time we're very little. And I have seen that in my experience, block men, women from really working together in the best ways we could to listen to women facing abortion and men as well, and bring this conversation into a kingdom conversation. Instead, we tend to categorize it like our culture does, and, and fight about it from those ways, but also view men and women from those lenses. And I think it's important for us as Christian men and women to go see the movie, to not be dissuaded by the people saying it's too political. and to go with an open-minded heart from a posture of really just listening to someone's experience. And for my husband and I, he came with me. It just facilitated ways of me telling him stories he'd never heard about what I experienced growing up and messages I heard about a woman with my gifts or my personality or my place in society. And it was a great conversation. So I just wanted to say that we're gonna be putting that podcast out there. So if you haven't already seen the film, I do recommend it, and I hope you'll join us for the podcast conversation. I'm so excited today to be joined on the podcast by my dear friend, Simone Halpin. You're brave enough to come with me and discuss the Barbie movie, Simone.
Simone Halpin (04:12):
I had to go see him first. , but yes,
Angela Weszely (04:14):
, and we have, I'm excited. We've known each other for years, and we'll unpack that in the podcast. But I wanna give context that Simone is the executive director and co-founder of Naomi's House here in Chicago, where they believe that every woman who has suffered from commercial sexual exploitation is worthy of freedom, healing, and a fresh start. And their mission at Naomi's house is to help her find it. Mm-hmm. and Simone, I love your work and what you're doing. You founded it over 10 years ago, is that right?
Simone Halpin (04:43):
2000, well, 2012 was when the idea landed on a piece of paper. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Angela Weszely (04:49):
. So speak that over a decade ago, because that, that's when it has to happen. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And so when I saw the Barbie movie I was like, oh, I feel like I need to talk about this and how it connects to the Christian response to abortion. Mm-hmm. . So I texted you mm-hmm. , and you were game before you'd even seen the movie, and then asked me mm-hmm. , you were curious how it would connect to the abortion issue. ,
Simone Halpin (05:12):
Help me, let me see this .
Angela Weszely (05:15):
but you were brave enough to say yes right at the beginning, which is pretty amazing, and says a lot about you. And so I just have so much respect for the journey God's had you on all the conversations we've had over the years. Mm-hmm. And mm-hmm. Diving to have this conversation. Mm-hmm. Before we do that, before we talk about our stories, I did wanna say that I'm really glad, Simone, we didn't record this last week, , because I didn't, I didn't know how political it was last week. So I saw the Barbie movie a week ago today, and with my husband, and, we'll, we'll talk about that. We'll share our experience. But then through the week, I was talking to different people about it and realized, oh, there's some divisiveness around here. Even framed politically. Have you heard that? The political
Simone Halpin (06:00):
Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. , which I, well, that's actually why it was part of the reason why I was hesitant to go see it, is because I had heard how divisive it was and politically charged. And I thought, well, I'm not, I don't need any more of that. That's everywhere. and so I wasn't, and I'm, to be totally transparent, I'm not a movie goer, really. It, it doesn't necessarily, yeah. There's a practical side to me that just has a really hard time just sitting still Wow. For that long. And I know it has to have a purpose and a happy ending, typically. Okay. And anyway, so, but when you texted me, I thought, I absolutely wanna have this conversation with you. I will go see the Barbie movie just to be prepared and informed Of course. And I think you've already, you kind of already touched on it, it's important to talk about, and there's a, a platform and some leverage that the movie gives us as women who are leaders and, you know, have strong voices and have, have positions of influence at times that it's, it's important that we are relevant and, and watching the movie with those eyes, you know?
Angela Weszely (07:09):
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So I wanted to start off saying that we recog now, I've seen it twice now, and I've been reading a lot, all the political, I feel ready to discuss it. Mm-hmm. But I did wanna say, I'm really glad that our previous podcast was about listening to other people's stories. And so I wanna say that's the posture we're going to have this conversation in, and we're not going to have a political conversation about it, , we're not gonna go into mm-hmm. What people are saying, but rather it's an opportunity to listen to people's stories. Mm-hmm. . and I, I would encourage everyone who's listening, if you haven't watched it yet, we're gonna include spoilers, right? So we're just saying that right now mm-hmm. , go see it and or go listen to the , the previous podcast mm-hmm. . But I think it's an opportunity to listen to people.
(07:58):
And honestly, that was the first response I had in the movie theater with my husband, is I felt seen, I felt heard just watching some of the stereotypes and things they were throwing up there on the movie. Mm-hmm. And, and I, again, it took the second time watching it for me to process some of what we'll talk about, but mm-hmm. that's just the posture we wanna have of listening mm-hmm. And people hearing. So I'd love to start out with your story, Simone, in terms of starting Naomi's house. We can even talk a little bit about our history in Chicago mm-hmm. , but mm-hmm. , let's just get to know you a bit first, , before we have this really hard conversation.
Simone Halpin (08:37):
yeah. Well, I would have to think a little bit harder than I was prepared for it to tell you the years I worked for you. I can't remember, but I did together.
Angela Weszely (08:47):
Yeah,
Simone Halpin (08:48):
I know. I, I think we both had our now 16 year olds. Yes. You were, you had Noah when I worked for you, and then shortly after I had Maddie, who's my oldest. I think I told you
Angela Weszely (09:00):
I was pregnant or something, and then you got pregnant right out. Yeah. They're not that far
Simone Halpin (09:04):
Apart, right at mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Actually, it was the first day you were executive director. Okay. If you found out you were pregnant. Yes. Do you remember that? It was the first week,
Angela Weszely (09:13):
Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yes, I do remember that. Yeah.
Simone Halpin (09:15):
That's a huge part of my story. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. You had been at Carris for a while, but that was the, that timing was very parallel. So shortly after, yeah. So whatever year that was, 2006 ish. Yeah. In my time at Carris, I share when, whenever the possibility to share about, like, how God began to develop in me, just a deep passion for women and ways to serve women and how the, the church can serve women. That really started, I mean, it, it was even before working for Caris, it was definitely a part of my story because coming to faith and knowing Jesus was all through the influence of other women. So I've al I always knew just innately the power of women when we are for one another. Yeah. And we care in deep ways and, and about our community that I'd experienced just in a very direct way.
(10:12):
So then coming to work for Caris, and your first, I think I texted you after your first episode of this podcast, . It's like, Angie, that was so good. It was so good to remember. I was on, I was an observer of what God was doing in your life and, and in the direct wake of all the positive things that he was doing in your life. I was getting like an indirect, this is happening to me as well, and just having a lot of insight about I can, I could tell I won't, but I could tell stories of things. I would, I would remember you coming to work and saying, dreams you had, or a new interpretation of scripture that you'd never seen in a, you saw it in a different light, and I was your audience . And so that was such a formative time for me, and I continued to have children, so eventually phased out of working for you at Carris.
(11:04):
And transitioned to working part-time for Moody Church, which you also referenced in your first episode which was so great to remember all that. And through my, my role there I was the director of Women's Care. I just finished my master's at Moody Bible Institute, and I was really discharged with how to take women from inside the Moody Church, which is really known for, like, it's a heady, theologically deep church that's known for their teaching. And encouraging women to take that and put faith to their feet, take it outside the church. And so that was kind of my role. And through that experience, I learned about women who were being forced to sell their bodies on the streets of Chicago. And I started doing street outreach and I was discovering so much was happening through that experience. I was learning about an issue that was happening literally in the doorstep of where I went to church and where I lived, and where I was raising my children.
(12:11):
I lived in the city at the time. but I was also seeing the impact of other women experiencing outreach alongside me. And recognizing that you don't have to go far, far away to experience brokenness Right. At our, you know, at our, at our doorstep, like I said. And so the more I got involved with women who were being trafficked and exploited at the time, I didn't even have the language for it. I thought women were selling their bodies as a way of life. And this was prostitution, like I'd seen in the movies.
Angela Weszely (12:41):
I mean, going to the, this
Simone Halpin (12:42):
Has, right, the Barbie mm-hmm. , that's
Angela Weszely (12:43):
Just mm-hmm. , we didn't even realize what we were mm-hmm. hearing mm-hmm. how things were being framed. Oh,
Simone Halpin (12:48):
Absolutely. And I am, you would think, I would not be surprised by this anymore, but I'm still so surprised that people still believe Right. That women are choosing Right. Prostitution, that it's a, it as if they have agency and choice in selling their body for sex, which is not the case. Yeah. And so I, you know, now that I've been in this field, this all started in 2012 was the first time I did outreach. so however many years later, I'm like, I can't believe that that's still the narrative. as much work as we've done and as much life change as we've seen happen it's still very much a perception. So I was one of the, I believe the same thing, and the more I got to know women who were being exploited commercially exploited, I mean, there was, there's, there's an entire economy that happens through the buying and selling of women and their bodies for sex.
(13:39):
And so the more involved I got it was just the journey of, and I think yours is similar in the sense that God is leading you down this path. It feels way bigger than you could ever imagine. Mm-hmm. . And you're just saying Yes, the next step. Yeah. Yes. To the next step. That's exactly what happened. And I approached the Moody Church along with the woman who co-founded with me, and we asked, can we begin a ministry that will help women come out of this life and start over? and it's typical of a woman who's being trafficked that she has, she really has nothing. Everything's been taken from her, and she's completely dependent on her trafficker. So in order to come out of that, you women need a long term safe place to heal and re and, and kind of reenter back into independence.
(14:26):
And it takes, you know, we're learning years for her to do that, and pretty much every resource available. So we started that journey. Moody Church said, yes, they launched us. and in the sense that they made it clear that we had to do all of our own fundraising, and that they, so they don't fund us, but they also said, you, we don't know how to do this for this demographic. You have to figure out how to help women in this demographic. And so it took four years to do that, to raise the support by the house that we launched and opened the doors in 2016. So we've been serving survivors for almost seven years.
Angela Weszely (15:02):
That's amazing. And we're gonna definitely put links to Naomie's House in the show notes so everyone can check out the ministry and what you're doing mm-hmm. . And you know, I just, I, I thought of you for all the reasons you mentioned in your story to have this conversation. And I got choked up actually when you said well, you talked about the power of women helping women, but then you talked about your experience of me as I was having, as I was going through things at c and I, and, and maybe this is something you talk about. I had no idea I was having that type of impact on you. Mm. mm-hmm. , I think if I go back to the time, I, I was probably a little afraid to share what I was thinking, and maybe the , this is why think the Barbie movie rec resonated with me.
(15:47):
And this is how we're tying all this in. If, if listeners are like, how are you possibly going to tie all this in? We will, we promise mm-hmm. . But there's something that and this is where we're gonna talk about Barbie. There's something that I, I, I'm seeing, I'm unpacking, and it's not just the movie. This has been happening for the last year and a half. I'm unpacking ways that I've been impacted by the culture and views I grew up with about women and our role, our, how we interact with men that have caused me to think certain ways about myself. And that's an example, Simone, where mm-hmm. , I think I would've been very self-effacing at the time, or I'm just this, or I'm just that. And you're describing this profound experience that we were having together. And I think, man, if I could have had a different framework of that, and this is why I wanna have this conversation, if, if we had been freer to, I don't know, take that seriously, the influence that we were having on each other mm-hmm. Because you were influencing me at the same time. Mm-hmm. I just think of how much farther that can go to, to help solve some of these huge issues that are facing us, if that makes sense,
Simone Halpin (16:52):
Man.
Angela Weszely (16:53):
And that's why I almost started crying
Simone Halpin (16:54):
When you were talking. It does sense. I
Angela Weszely (16:56):
Didn't even explain it, but that's what was happening to me.
Simone Halpin (16:59):
Yeah. Emotionally,
(17:01):
I, I'm so glad you named that. I, and I just wanna say that we've already both expressed that we're nervous about this conversation. Yes. And I, I, I, as you were talking, I was like, I think I can, I might be able to pinpoint why I'm nervous. Oh, and great number one. Well, let me just say number one is because I really love the church. Mm-hmm. , I really love the church. God has used the church in my life in profound ways, and it's a little scary to talk about how there could be some toxicity within the church and feel like we're not respecting and loving the church for what it is. Right. and, and that feels scary to me because I, when you love something, you don't wanna disparage it. Right. Right. So that's part of where my nerves are coming from. Yeah. But the other thing is in a little bit of maybe what you were feeling, you know, 15 years ago when we worked together is for whatever reason, and the Barbie movie, sort of, it, you know, puts a spotlight on this. We have always been told whether directly or indirectly, that we have to be, become smaller
(18:07):
Women in general. Yep. Have this, it happens to this day where I walk into a meeting with a pastor, a male pastor, and I have to assess immediately how big can I be? Or how small do I have to be in this meeting? Wow. I have to decide, can he, I'm, I'm vocal. Mm-hmm. , I'm opinionated. Mm-hmm. , I have, I, I process out loud mm-hmm. and I have life experience. And so I have to decide in a, in the moment when I meet with somebody who has, I'm coming to that meeting because they're in charge. And so I have to decide how, how can I, what part, how much of my personality do I have to hold back and can I be myself? And I feel like that is for whatever reason, the narrative, it's not even a narrative. It's just true. And I feel like I watched you go through that 15 years ago because you were discovering something that nobody else was talking about.
(19:09):
Nobody else was giving us language to talk about. Just the, the brokenness that we all felt over why women would have to choose abortion in the first place. I mean, we grieve that still do. And you were starting to, God was enlightening you and giving you language and insight on how this could look different mm-hmm. . But to enter into that and be that voice is so scary. And so I'm feeling a little bit of that even today. Like, I don't wanna, I don't, I don't have the answers to patriarchy, misogyny. I just wanna say that I don't have the answers. Neither
Angela Weszely (19:40):
Do I.
Simone Halpin (19:40):
Neither do I. And to even Right. And to even like enter into the space is a little bit scary, because I don't wanna say, I don't wanna offend anybody, or I don't wanna, like, talk poorly about something that I love, which is the church or whatever it is, you know? And so I think that might be tapping in a little bit too. Why I feel nervous is I just, you know, it's, you know, it's kind of happening in real time.
Angela Weszely (20:01):
Okay. This is so happening in real time, because I did not think , I did not think our conversation was gonna go right there, but we prayed ahead of time that God would take this where he wants to go. And again, as you said that Simone, you also, you didn't talk about your degrees when you go to talk to a pastor, you have your master's in, what's your master's in Biblical,
Simone Halpin (20:25):
Biblical studies.
Angela Weszely (20:25):
Mm-hmm. You have your master's in biblical studies, and you're working on your,
Simone Halpin (20:29):
It's a doctorate of ministry. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
Angela Weszely (20:32):
. And you're working on a doctor,
Simone Halpin (20:32):
Working on it. Yeah.
Angela Weszely (20:34):
So you have your master's in biblical studies from Moody, and you're working on your doctorate from Wheaton and mm-hmm. . And this just, I'm just highlighting, let's just camp here. This highlights, and this is, I think, the piece of the Barbie movie. You're speaking about something you've absorbed, I'm sure from the time you were a little girl. And me too, we've absorbed, and that's, I think the narrative that the movie was trying to point out is mm-hmm. , there are things that we absorb and we think are normal. And that's one that you absorbed. How big can I be? Mm-hmm. , I mean, I'm just, I love that you put words to it, because I actually am not conscious that I do that. But I, I think that I mm-hmm. , I think I have some work to do. Mm-hmm. , this is, I'm gonna write this down. This would my counseling appointment. .
Simone Halpin (21:22):
Yeah. Well, if we come across too aggressive or too vocal. Yeah. or too opinionated. My experience is that sometimes the person I'm meeting with, and I don't wanna say it's ev it is not every bastard. It is not, and not every man
Angela Weszely (21:36):
Have been times. Yeah, exactly. Right. Mm-hmm.
Simone Halpin (21:37):
. Right. And not every man, right. Well, they will start to shut down and I lose eye contact, and I am rec, I'm, I'm starting to feel like, okay, I've gone too far. I have to bring it in a little bit. And picking up on those cues is just, it's the problem. I don't know how to fix mm-hmm. , but I, it's part of what I, I, I still have to do it because at the end of the day, I'm trying to gain support and resources for the women that I'm working with. So it's like, it's kind of like, well, is this what you have to do to get the job done?
Angela Weszely (22:06):
Yeah. And I, I, okay, so you're hitting why I am so motivated to have this conversation, and we are setting the expectation. We will not have answers today. I've already got in mind other podcasts I wanna have about this, but I've been feeling mm-hmm. Ever since the church two movement started happening, I just had this gut feeling same, same as what I had Becky Caras that I didn't have words for. That this is all connected, that there's a move the spirit to uncover some way really harmful ways that men and women have interacted mm-hmm. With each other mm-hmm. in the church, and they're tied, it's connected. And I was like, it's connected to the abortion issue and why we're not a safe place for this. I don't know how. And, and that's again, I think what
Simone Halpin (22:48):
,
Angela Weszely (22:50):
I've worked a long time to figure out how to talk about the abortion issue in a non-political way, and to not trigger anyone. And this is like, oh, I don't exactly know how to talk about this. I can pull out politics and we can share stories, which is our intent today. but they are, it's connected. And that's why I thought of you, because it's connected to why we do or don't respond to trafficking. It, it, and it's, and this is, nobody is the enemy here. Like, I just wanna mm-hmm. say that, let's just start out by saying that. 'cause some of the criticism is, oh, this movie shows men as bad, or, or, or, this is promoting a world where women are in charge. And that was not what I took from it, what I took from it. Mm-hmm. is nobody wins when either gender tries to be the, to be over the other.
Simone Halpin (23:38):
That's right.
Angela Weszely (23:38):
Is that what you mm-hmm. Like at the end of the day
Simone Halpin (23:42):
Mm-hmm. And
Angela Weszely (23:43):
You saw it. Okay.
Simone Halpin (23:44):
Absolutely. Yeah. You saw
Angela Weszely (23:45):
With your husband mm-hmm. and your teenage daughter mm-hmm. , I saw it with my husband. Was that the takeaway of the people you watched it with too? Mm-hmm. Let's just start there.
Simone Halpin (23:54):
Yeah. So my daughter, 16 year old daughter it was her second time seeing it, and she was like, just kind of annoyed by it at the end. And she just said, why can't, why couldn't they just show what partnership looks like? Yeah. Why couldn't they just show what it would look like if men and women lived in a society where there was partnership and nobody had to sacrifice the expense of who they are in order to have a flourishing life? And I was like, girl, write that down. But that's good. Well, that's,
Angela Weszely (24:21):
That should be the kingdom, right? Mm-hmm. , she's expressing mm-hmm. a view. She, that's a kingdom absolutely. View. That's what it should be like in the church.
Simone Halpin (24:30):
Yeah. So, and, and I, I, I'm so curious to get more of your thoughts of what you thought of the movie, because I left frustrated. Mm. And people I have talked to have said, well, that's art. That's what it did to you. It left you frustrated. It wasn't meant to give you the solutions. Right. It was meant to show you the problem. But my brain has a hard time sitting in the problems. I really like to just find solutions to move forward. It's my wiring. Right. So I left, I was uncomfortable, and I left frustrated processing it. In hindsight, of course, I, I recognize now that, that the intent of the movie wasn't to solve patriarchy. The intent of the movie was to exaggerate. And some, maybe some people wouldn't say exaggerate, but ex show an exaggeration. Right.
Angela Weszely (25:15):
Right.
Simone Halpin (25:15):
Of culture and how ludicrous it is either, either way, right? Yes. All women in charge, or all men in charge. Yeah.
Angela Weszely (25:22):
Okay. That's the, I love, love that you used the word ludicrous. 'cause that it was, my husband and I talked about it. I think that, 'cause he said this, he's like, everybody comes in and watches the first 30 minutes and thinks, oh, that's ludicrous Barbie land a place mm-hmm. where women are in charge of mm-hmm. . And then when they flip it to the real world, it's like that is equally as ludicrous. Mm-hmm. . And so I think that feeling was stronger. And I would say he shared this too, because we were caught unawares. Right. And that's art. We were caught up in Barbie land. This is so counter to what we're used to, that when we saw what we're used to it, it was like a new light. And like, this is just as crazy and mm-hmm. that, that's what that felt like. And to me mm-hmm. , what I, it's funny, we're so different. I mean, we're so alike in some ways, but so different because I immediately just went personal and I was like I really connected with Barbie, you know, her first experience in the real world is objectification. Mm-hmm. . And when I watched it again, you know, Ken's like, I feel admired, not Ogled at all, and no tone of violence. , she's like,
Simone Halpin (26:29):
I was,
Angela Weszely (26:31):
I really feel a tone of violence and, and the way the men talk to her, I was just like mm-hmm. . And I think what that did for me was, and this is what I want people to hear of experience as women. I can't even remember when I realized that was the case, but mm-hmm. , I just felt a little heartbroken that that place made me feel heartbroken because, and I unpack some things with my husband that just toxic stuff that happened to me growing up in the seventies mm-hmm. . So I do remember being shocked by stuff, but it's the innocence of mm-hmm. of a girl. Mm-hmm. And then finding out that, and that was just one piece of it, but I don't know, that one piece just resonated with me. Mm-hmm. , and I, I don't have an answer for it, but I just kind of sat in that feeling of mm-hmm. before I knew that was reality. And then, oh, this is reality. And how much in the church, okay, let's just take that issue mm-hmm. mm-hmm. , how much do we settle for that? How, how much have we all been programmed under that to where we don't even question it, we don't do what your daughter did. Mm-hmm. And say, what would actually be, what would the kingdom piece look like? Mm-hmm. .
Simone Halpin (27:39):
Mm-hmm.
Angela Weszely (27:40):
. Does that make sense?
Simone Halpin (27:42):
It does. It does. And I'm so glad you processed that, because those are a lot of , those that is totally like, it can conjure up a lot.
Angela Weszely (27:52):
Yes.
Simone Halpin (27:53):
I mean, honestly, so I'm glad that you, you processed that. I think one of the things that, in addition to what Maddie was able to articulate, the other thing that really just bothered me is the movie highlighted the worst Yeah. Of both men and women. Exactly.
Angela Weszely (28:09):
Stereotypes
Simone Halpin (28:10):
And Totally. And that men are super controlling and ego-centric, and all they care about is power. And that women are manipulative. I hated the indeed when they manipulated the men in order to get the vote. And I thought, what kind of message is this that you have to manipulate your way into power? And I recognized that maybe I took it too literal. That was the whole point, was that, you know, they were highlighting both the worst of men and women. And so that really irritated me. and again, my, the way my personality processed the whole thing was it just didn't feel helpful or productive from my point of view. And, and we're in a cultural war right now where everything feels super divisive. And so wherever you stand left or right, leaning politically, theology, whatever this just gave you ammo to further believe what you believe. Right. And so, to me, I'm like, where's the bridge building in all of this? And I just don't think that was the purpose of the movie . It was meant to build bridges.
Angela Weszely (29:09):
Right. But it,
Simone Halpin (29:11):
It was intended to give us conversation, like
Angela Weszely (29:13):
Exactly
Simone Halpin (29:14):
Like we're having mm-hmm. mm-hmm. , and can,
Angela Weszely (29:15):
Can we build bridges from those conversation? And I think that you know, just from our own exp and maybe, so maybe this is the place we build bridges as, like I said, as I was reevaluating, how should this conversation go? I really do think mm-hmm. , what Christie Vines brought in that last podcast of sitting and listening to people's stories and even that exercise of where they would hear someone's story and have to speak it back as that person. I really think that's the place for bridge building, because what I, what I liked about the movie was it was written by a man and a woman. So Greta Gerwig directed it. Mm-hmm. Which she's a female director, the most successful female director. I love seeing that. Right. Such an underrepresented field. She did little women love little women and Lady Bird mm-hmm.
(29:58):
. but she wrote the movie with Noah Bombach, who's her partner. And so it did, it does have a place for men and women to come together and have conversation mm-hmm. , because I do think it's written out of the experience of both of them. And so I think to have the conversation listening to each other, maybe that's the place for bridge building and mm-hmm. and saying, you know, why were you frustrated, Simone? What did, what, what is it you thought mm-hmm. Was so negative even hearing that mm-hmm. , I think that's a place we can, we can start to have the conversation, because I do wanna see this be a BRI Bridge builder between men and women. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . That's why I asked you to come on. I think in both of our issues, it can feel hard in the church for men and women to have this conversation together.
(30:43):
Mm-hmm. . So I guess I'm asking the question, are there some things, the movie highlights that we need to start mm-hmm. deconstructing as believers mm-hmm. things we've accepted as normal between men and women that aren't mm-hmm. Intended by God, that actually they're, they're getting in the way of us addressing these really important issues. Mm-hmm. because these two issues involve women and men together. but women bear the brunt of the shame. I mean, there's just so many stories, so something's not right at the very core mm-hmm. , and you said something before we started, like, it's scary to open that box. .
Simone Halpin (31:18):
Mm-hmm. ,
Angela Weszely (31:20):
I don't know what's gonna be in there and I don't have the answer, but when could we use this movie? Or could we use this time and culture to say, what have we believed between the genders that really isn't God that would help us mm-hmm. come together. Mm. I know that's pie in the sky. You know, me, , I go straight to the
Simone Halpin (31:39):
Mm-hmm. the
Angela Weszely (31:40):
Huge dream. Mm-hmm. But that would be my dream. Mm-hmm. like what, what Maddie talked about that kingdom view. I would, so both of these involve the sexual area. Right. So I, I I did mm-hmm. I did see that objectification area, all of that in this movie mm-hmm. , what is going on? Even if we just take even not even leadership, right. You talked about leadership and being small, and I have examples of that too, and we can definitely touch on that. But in terms of the issues we're working with and trying to have productive conversations mm-hmm. It involves the issue of sexuality, and there's just some mm-hmm. weird things that don't reflect the kingdom that are accepted in the church. Mm-hmm. , and I love the church like you do. Mm-hmm. , where could we start deconstructing some of that and rebuilding mm-hmm. as brothers and sisters.
Simone Halpin (32:23):
Mm-hmm. . Well, I told you this already, but I have shared last month's episode with that the woman was brilliant mm-hmm. and her experience and research on mm-hmm. on what it takes to hear from and how what we can do, what are practical things, practical things we can do to hear each other's story Yeah. And have that connection. It's exactly what we need in today's culture in terms of we believe, you know, we can feel so divided and have such polarizing issues that come up and completely miss one another. Yes. And it, it does happen at Naomi's house all the time. And we work really hard to give women who go through our programming and who we do therapy with, and we try to reunite with their family and help them find jobs in the community. And it's a constant battle that women who've been exploited and have any history in the sex industry have any criminal records or have had any length of time where they weren't parenting because they either lost custody or they experienced homelessness.
(33:38):
There's all these things that, that they're fighting against to rebuild their lives. That our culture has a hard time embracing and re kind of allowing their reentry into the community. And so teaching the church and equipping the community around us on how to see women beyond the label of a trafficking victim or a former sex worker is where we start a lot of those conversations. And it's important for people to know how women were lured into commercial exploitation, what their experiences were like and what life is like for them now. And, and being able just to share those stories. women themselves are empowered to share them if they're ever feeling like they want to, but a lot of times they don't. It's re-traumatizing to express their history and their story. Yeah. so we'll give like, general stories to help people understand that, that narrative.
(34:37):
And as soon as people learn about what life was like for the women we started when they were younger, or as teenagers, and how they were abused as children, and there was ob objectification as teenagers, it just completely melts away the stereotype we have towards women who have any history whatsoever with sexual exploitation or trafficking, and they still struggle to find jobs. And we have a hard time finding landlords who will sign a lease with women as they graduate from our program. We have a hard time, I don't know how telling, I don't have the answer to this, but it's very telling that we're mainly based in DuPage County, where there are, ironically, DuPage County is the, the highest is the county that buys the most sex out of the state of Illinois. So the most sex is purchased, whether online or through escorts in DuPage County. And the trend that we see, the, the causation of that, that DuPage County is one of the wealthiest, if not the wealthiest county in the state. Wow. Okay. So think about that. There's also the most churches,
Angela Weszely (35:46):
That's where my head went.
Simone Halpin (35:48):
Okay. So just process that for a second.
Angela Weszely (35:50):
We have
Simone Halpin (35:51):
To additionally mm-hmm. additionally, when women are going through our programming, whether it's through our residential programming or a day programming we, we just give her resources and tools, and we help her build pathways to know God and to receive his love. It's, it's all just voluntarily. It's, it's, let us model this. Let us if you have questions about God, we wanna talk to you about him. A lot of women who come to our programs are already believers. And so I say all that because a lot of their healing comes from them building a relationship or starting a relationship with God. Hmm. And it's beautiful. Right. We believe that full and total healing comes through a relationship with Jesus. So when that happens in women's, I mean, literally on my calendar in two weeks, a woman's being baptized. Mm. Like just, it's, it's constant. Like it's, it's the power of the gospel. But what happens is, because it's a lifetime of healing, of when you've experienced exploitation in the ways our women have, they can't find a church to go to. Hmm.
(36:53):
So because of their appearance or because of culturally the way they dress, or their mannerisms or the way they were socialized growing up, they just look different. And their language is different, and their mannerisms are different a lot of times than what we see in a lot of the churches around DuPage County. And so the, it's just a, I don't know what the word is, it's a myth. The deferential between what churches look like in this county and why women can't find a home there. I don't have the solution to it. I wish I could figure out, but it's just, it's just a miss.
Angela Weszely (37:32):
Wow. And why there's so much trafficking in a county that's known mm-hmm. not just for churches, but I would say evangelical churches, right? Mm-hmm. , the city of Wheaton is in DuPage and a lot of big churches. Okay. , , you know,
Simone Halpin (37:48):
I just, I know mm-hmm. , I
Angela Weszely (37:49):
Just feel like, and I want, okay, I wanna invite men into this conversation, and we are going to have a conversation with some pastors, men and women. We're gonna continue this. Good. But I just wanna invite men into this conversation that it doesn't have to be this way again, I feel like mm-hmm. . So let's go back to that scene in Barbie. We just accept that men ogle women. Right. And, and, and even in, okay, I'll tell you this. My husband and I are reading this book called The Great Sex Rescue. Have you heard of it? Oh,
Simone Halpin (38:22):
Yeah. I'm reading the second one, which is She deserves Better.
Angela Weszely (38:26):
Okay. So I'm recommending both of them, we'll put 'em in the shadow notes now. I don't, is she deserves better about marriage? 'cause the
Simone Halpin (38:32):
Great No, it's about the toxic teachings of evangelical churches around sex.
Angela Weszely (38:37):
Okay. Maybe that's a better one then. Well, the Great Sex Rescue is specifically merit. Mm-hmm. , that one. Mm-hmm. . And so, again, maybe this is why the Barbie movie resonated with me, because I read this book like three months ago and we're going through and discussing it, and it was like, my trip is like my awakening. It's like Barbie's awakening in the movie. Mm-hmm.
Simone Halpin (38:56):
mm-hmm. , where I was like,
Angela Weszely (38:59):
They talk these books that, that I was told to read mm-hmm. As a new wife in mm-hmm. I got married in 1993. They act like I exist for my husband. Like I, and yeah, it, we've been deconstructing this type of stuff for a couple decades mm-hmm. , my husband and I, we've been in counseling. But I think reading that book, I was like, this is blatant. and we have accepted this. And I guess that's what I mean. And what I said to my husband was, we gotta go to the very bottom of all this and like, tear it all down. And so that's why I said, will you come to see Barbie with me, ? And it was, it was productive. Again, it's not the answer to everything, but it's productive to this conversation. I mean, she quotes leaders saying things about young women that are just
(39:45):
Not the kingdom. And yet this has been put in a Christian book, and we're supposed to accept that we exist for men. And you know what? Yeah. Men aren't happy with that either. And I love, she talks about that in the book, like, we settle for it, but we settle for it. But nobody's happy with that. Mm-hmm. . And I think getting to the root of that then, and she demystifies things like lust and objectification. Like, it's not that big of a deal. You just see women or men, you know, see people as people. Mm-hmm. . And I think for us as Christians, you see them in the image of God. And you know, I think about the women you're talking about, these are our sisters in Christ. We need to make a place in the church. we, these are our brothers in Christ. We need to be able to have this conversation with them. mm-hmm. , I don't know. There's something there, and I don't know how to say it except that we've tolerated our own sanitized versions, maybe of objectification. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. and women existing for men. Mm-hmm. . And that we have to stop that if we're gonna seek God, bring the kingdom and bring these better relationships between men and women. Mm-hmm.
Simone Halpin (40:44):
not only women existing for men, but men, women are also responsible for the sin, lust of men. Yes. Mm-hmm. , it's, yeah. That box that you said, are we gonna open it? 'cause what you do, it's really hard. I'm
Angela Weszely (40:58):
Sorry, we're opening it. No,
Simone Halpin (41:00):
It's, I know. It's so good. It's so important to talk about. As long as everyone understands that we're still figuring it out, and we're
Angela Weszely (41:05):
Not experts and we're recommending these books No. Because they do a far better job than, we'll, that's right. Maybe we'll see if these, the authors can come on this podcast too. They would do a better job.
Simone Halpin (41:13):
Oh, you totally should. It's a mother-daughter. Yeah. Yeah. the great ces, the great Sex Rescue, does a ton of research. And so they use that research for, she deserves better their, their sequel, I guess to be more, maybe that's how they would call it. And there is this overwhelming trend, and this is you, Angie, growing up, I didn't grow up in the church, right. And so I came to faith as a high school student. but growing up in the church, the common evangelical te teachings about marriage and sex ended up long term. And this is all research based from the books. You can look it up and see it. The general teaching that we can take from it is that women who grew up in the church had a lower self-esteem, and they entered into marriages with a lower self-esteem. And the implications of low self-esteem can go a million different directions. But it's not knowing what your boundaries are, or not adhering to your boundaries. feeling shame of those boundaries were crossed. not being able to articulate your needs. Yep. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. women who also grew up in the church, an evangelical church who went an average once a week, had less understanding of our bodies and how they work. And they knew more male, not male anatomy vocabulary than they did a female Wow. Their own bodies.
Angela Weszely (42:37):
Wow. Isn't
Simone Halpin (42:38):
That bonkers? It's, but it's true. I mean, you can think about it. It's true. It's crazy.
Angela Weszely (42:43):
It's crazy. But it's true. And so I love Yes. And I lived it, right?
Simone Halpin (42:46):
Yeah. So, yeah. So it's a, it's a it's a little bit of a scary conversation to have because as I'm raising, I have a 16 year old daughter, and I also have a six year old daughter. Yep. and they talk in this, in these books, in this conversation that's so important. Do we have a lot around what you've already talked about, but like the modesty messages and how they're always, they tend to be heavily geared toward women and not toward men, and how purity culture has actually been damaging. And that, like, that feels like it's a dichotomy. Like how can purity be harmful? Right. Because we know purity is a biblical value.
Angela Weszely (43:21):
Exactly.
Simone Halpin (43:23):
But it,
Angela Weszely (43:24):
It has been, but the
Simone Halpin (43:24):
Way mm-hmm. it has been. And so understanding that, and then having con like now I'm thinking, I think I've actually said the wrong things to my daughter. Yeah. Who's 16 now, and how she, and I wanna, I've asked her, I've had to like, retract some of those things. And it's scary because you don't want harmful effects to happen. Yeah. You don't want bad things to happen to our girls. But at the same time, teaching people out of fear and shame is never an effective way. I mean, it can be effective, but it's gonna, it's gonna result in bad fruit. Right. Whereas there's so much, it's a slower, more intentional way of parenting and raising girls and raising our daughters when we have more conversations that typically are uncomfortable. Right. Right. To talking about sex at a young age, not at a, at appropriate age with girls and just, and, and, and giving them the space to ask questions and not parent out of fear and raise girls out of fear and shame. And it's, it just, it takes, it's so much more work. Right?
Angela Weszely (44:23):
No. Or raise or raise boys. I mean, we both have girl Totally. Both have a, I have a daughter and a son. Yeah. I have two daughters, two sons. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Simone Halpin (44:31):
That's right. That's right.
Angela Weszely (44:32):
And this, so, so I think, and this is where, you know, going back to our issues, so, and this is this route, so I'm glad we named it in trafficking, there are men mm-hmm. , there are men, users, there are men, I don't know what you call the mm-hmm. people who traffick her, there's
Simone Halpin (44:48):
Fire, fire, but then traffickers, there's also the traffickers. Sellers. The sellers. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. .
Angela Weszely (44:52):
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And then the abortion issue, obviously there's a man in the, in mm-hmm. , the child is, is half the man's mm-hmm. . And I think the uncomfortableness in the church of talking about these, and, and I have stories to tell about how it manifests, but it's this wrong thinking that women are responsible or women are the temps to these things because
Simone Halpin (45:14):
Mm-hmm. ,
Angela Weszely (45:15):
I actually use this, the word Jezebel in the Barbie movie, which I was like, yes, that's such a biblical, but that, that's that. And that's what was in these books. Mm-hmm. , even when the books that were referencing talk about men's lust issue, the way they talked about it is, oh, the danger of the woman's body, the, the woman's body is the problem. Mm-hmm. as opposed to that's not what Jesus says. Mm-hmm. , Jesus talks about the person who's mm-hmm. Doing the lusting, and a body doesn't necessarily, doesn't necessitate lust. Mm-hmm. Or, or, you know, this thing. So there's this fear. Mm-hmm. I guess I, what I'm getting to is, and these are, these are good men. I'm not saying we're, there's not talking about bad men who are trying to hurt women. I'm talking about good men who've absorbed these messages who are a little afraid sometimes.
(45:56):
Yeah. Because it's, well, isn't that the woman's fault? I mean, I think that just, that's been like a, something I believe from the enemy just covering our eyes in this, not only isn't it kind of the woman's fault, but secondly, the absolute absence of the man. So someone was just telling me a story. I was at, she's another woman who has her doctorate, very powerful woman. I'm inviting you to come on our board. And I was like, can you help me theologically talk about the Barbie movie? and she said in her church there, the woman got pregnant outside of marriage. They brought the woman up and made her apologize. The man is sitting right there. I mean, I've heard about it happen where she said, go get the, like, I've heard this story several times, but the fact that the man was actually a church member and only the woman was brought, and then we wonder, oh, why don't women come when they're facing an unintended pregnancy? Mm-hmm. Or why don't, you know, men come? Mm-hmm. We're not doing anybody. we're not helping anybody when we continue thinking it's women's fault or that men aren't involved. Like this is, I guess what I, my heart, let's be brothers and sisters. Let's view each other as humans. Let's own our parts in both of these issues. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. And come together to work on them. I mean, I mean,
Simone Halpin (47:04):
This is why you, this is why you exist . This is, this is your calling it to teach churches how to do this. I mean, the, the ProGrace approach is it's so powerful. And it starts way before an unintended in pregnancy. Right. It starts with teaching the teachings of Jesus and his radical grace. It makes us, us uncomfortable. Everybody wants to say, but what about the sin? Right? Yes. I mean, yes. That's, I mean, we know that, right. That's inevitable. But it's the grace over and over and over that we talked about this this morning in a meeting. It is the kindness of the Lord that leads people to repentance. It isn't shame. Yeah. Or embarrassment, or, you know, bringing somebody up in front of the church. I, I did, I'm shocked. I did not know that still existed today.
Angela Weszely (47:49):
I mean, and this happened a while ago. She was telling me this. Okay, but it's not the first time I've heard the story. And it was so evident that mm-hmm.
(47:55):
, he was right there. And I guess you, you triggered something in me. Let's talk about all the sins. Right? So let's talk about the sin of mm-hmm. of, even in the church, these gotta read these books. Mm-hmm. 'cause the stories in the church of making it normal, that it's normal for men to ale women like that, that's a sin. Mm-hmm. And, and we both do it. Men and women accept it. Let's not accept that sin. Let's not accept the sin that we're, that, that we're sending a message that women in the church need to be smaller. And I don't care whether you're complementarian or egalitarian, God gives leadership gifts to women and men. Mm-hmm. , you could argue in equal measure. Mm-hmm. . And there needs to be respect for that. actually, I want you to share your story as we go.
(48:36):
My story, I told my husband, he is like, you have to share this. I know we're almost outta time, but you know, I, I grew up with a definite pull towards ministry. and I grew up in the seventies and eighties and you know what I thought I was gonna do? I thought I'd be a pastor's wife, and then I would sing and, and, and I just am like, where did I absorb that? That was the way I could do ministry. Like that's, I guess the Barbie movie. Like, it's so shocking for her coming from Barbie land, I guess I was being empathetic with my young self. Like, that must have been shocking. Mm-hmm. to have a dream to be in ministry, but to think, well, that I will marry someone who's in ministry. That's how I'll be in ministry. Mm-hmm. and I actually chose to go on staff with the administrator after college because there were women leaders.
(49:22):
It was the first place I saw where women could lead. But even with that, I didn't notice that it was only before they had kids. So when I became a mom mm-hmm. I experienced, they literally shut me down and said, oh, you're not gonna do ministry anymore. And I was like, I mean, I, that was a damaging, but that's, that's this message you're talking about. You know, when I wonder why do I struggle with being small? Well, I'm told my dreams, once I had a child, my dreams had to die. Like, I, I, my identity was changed. Now I'm and that's key to the abortion issue. Right. Which is why I'm so passionate about it. But we need to repent of sending messages like that to women. Mm-hmm. . And I feel okay asking people to do that. And I own my part in it, , you know, it's not like I'm not willing to have this conversation mm-hmm. , but
Simone Halpin (50:06):
Mm-hmm.
Angela Weszely (50:06):
these things don't just happen. Like, there, there are things who's accepted of nor as normal that have hurt women. Mm-hmm. , and we need to be able to talk about them. Mm-hmm. . So do you mind sharing your story that I asked to just share that you'd forgot that you couldn't believe I remembered, but it so impacted me that I do remember it. And I wanna end the podcast with this because I, I think it needs to be heard.
Simone Halpin (50:25):
Oh yeah. We need to hear your, yeah. Oh, okay. Well, I mean, the one you're referring to was when I was in grad school and I went to a Complementarian Theo seminary. Yes. , they changed the name, did Moody Theological Theological Seminary. Okay. I had to take a preaching class. What, and my point in, in making it known that the school I went to was a Complimentarian seminary was that I was still required to take a preaching class. I didn't realize you were required to take it. It was a required class. And I remember thinking, this feels uncomfortable because I know that my male professor and my male classmates don't believe, based on their theology, that I have the authority to teach men. And I didn't know, am I sinning according to them by even having, I had to do several messages.
(51:27):
I went through the process of putting together messages and preaching and then they would record you. anyway. And so I just, I saw the irony in that. Yeah. And didn't really push back because I just wanted to complete the class and finish my degree and move on. and so one of the messages I gave, we critiqued each other, and another guy in the class wrote on my critique you would be a good preacher if you were a man. And I wasn't even like, aware yet of some of the discrepancies that happened for men and women in leadership roles or teaching roles. I just remember thinking, that's hurtful. Like, what does that even mean? And I did. I took it, I took the critique and I went to the professor and I was tearful, you know, and then even that, you know, you get kind of stereotyped for being, for being emotional.
(52:16):
And I went to him and in tears and just said, this is what you're teaching. This is, this is, this is coming from your teaching and your theology that because I'm a woman, I'm not a good preacher. But yet he's saying that he's like a backhanded compliment. And so that, I mean, obviously it stuck with me. It stuck with you. 'cause you remember it. Yeah. And yeah, God has done a, a, an amazing redemptive story in my life that I'm so grateful for. I don't seek out to preach. because of my role at Naomi's house I have the opportunity to teach a lot. I mean, I teach my staff and it's part of my role, and I have those opportunities. So I feel very fulfilled. But in the last several years, more and more opportunities have come up for me to teach and preach.
(52:56):
Yeah. And it's just, it's been very redemptive and I feel like the Lord has, and, and part and I, and I, I, I feel like your story is similar. And I just wanna say this, this last part, especially about men is my husband didn't grow up in the evangelical church either. So when we were young and getting married and we went through premarital counseling by an evangelical couple that we loved dearly, they were wonderful premarital counselors to us, but they definitely taught us the evangelical roles for men and women. And we desperately wanted a healthy marriage, and we desperately wanted to please God. So we like wore these roles as ill-fitting as they were for us, the very beginning of our marriage because we wanted to do the right thing. Yeah. It was so obvious from the very beginning of our marriage that we were not a traditional couple.
(53:51):
That it, when it came to what we were taught, not only from these c or premarital counselors, but just from the church in general of men and women's. I mean, there's never been a day that I have not worked. I just thrive when I'm working. Yeah. Anthony does 90% of the cooking. I hate the grocery store. He loves the grocery store. I mean, there are so many non-traditional roles that we fulfill. And so as God's done a redemptive life, a redemptive work in my life Yeah. Especially around teaching and preaching. He's done a, a redemptive work in both of us. And Anthony is the biggest cheerleader. The biggest cheerleader. And he was, he was so annoyed at the Barbie movie and how it made men look because he is like, I don't identify with. Yeah. He really is just a beautiful picture of God's grace in his own life and being so comfortable in who he is and how he, he jokes all the time and says, I'm constantly introduced as Simone's husband, which is just hilarious and awkward for both of us. But it's just part of our story that we have found so much freedom. And I say all the time, there's actually not roles identified in scripture that's, that are applicable to us
Angela Weszely (54:59):
Today's Yeah. When you were talking about it, I'm like, no, there's not. In fact, I don't self imposed. I do all the cooking 'cause I love it, but mm-hmm. Bob. And it would be so funny he would always organize all the play dates 'cause I would double book. So it's him and all the moms, you know, texting.
Simone Halpin (55:13):
Awesome. I love it because I I love
Angela Weszely (55:15):
It. I can't do that. But you're right, it doesn't say that. It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible. And I would also
Simone Halpin (55:19):
Say, no, it doesn't, it
Angela Weszely (55:20):
Also doesn't say, I, I I know some lovely complimentarian people who would be appalled at what happened to you there, because even that mm-hmm. God gives gifts to people, you know, like you were called to preach to, even if they didn't believe you could preach in a church setting to men, whatever they're mm-hmm. a true, you know, a true brother in Christ would celebrate that you are gonna use these gifts all these other places. Right. And I guess that's the thing. I don't wanna make this a divide between Complimentarian egalitarian or men and women. I we're going back to Maddie, you gotta tell Maddie how much she's in this podcast. . We want the kingdom. Yeah. And, and I, and I love that you and I are dreaming big, like she said, like, why can't they show what it looks like in partnership? Yeah. And to our point mm-hmm. It's gonna get messy. We're gonna have to unpack some things. Mm-hmm. I, I hope we do. I I hope people go see the Barbie movie with a significant man or woman in their life and talk about it after dinner and like
Simone Halpin (56:15):
Talk about it. Mm-hmm. , just
Angela Weszely (56:16):
Start having the conversation mm-hmm. . because I do think God's doing something new and we just wanna be part of it. So That's right. Thank you Simone, for being so brave.
Simone Halpin (56:27):
Good.
Angela Weszely (56:28):
Going into this, this is
Simone Halpin (56:29):
So full circle for me. You know this, I love and respect you with everything in me. So I'm just so honored that you asked me to be on this with you today.
Angela Weszely (56:37):
Yes. Well, you are an amazing leader. and I'm grateful to have known you all these years and I do love how it's come full circle. So great talking with you. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you've been inspired to see Jesus and to be part of a community where you feel at home. Join our email subscriber list to receive updates on how together we can change the Christian response to abortion. The only way we'll do that is through God's grace, which is beyond measure. I am so grateful for that. And so, until next time, I am Angela Wesley on the Grace Journey with you Prograce on abortion Real Talk. No Politics is a production of Prograce International.
