Angela Weszely (00:05):
Welcome to Prograce on Abortion, real Talk, no Politics. I'm Angela Wesley, CEO and Co-founder of ProGrace. We are a community of people who want to have the conversation around abortion. Now, it's not currently happening in our churches because there's so much tension around the debate and having a civil conversation is hard. The church is divided, but it's time to come together. And the way we'll do that is to model our approach after Jesus, not politics. If you feel like you don't really belong in either the pro-life or pro-Choice Camp and you think surely Jesus has a better way than welcome to the ProGrace community, a place you can belong. Hello. I'm so glad that we are able to be together again on the podcast and I'm really excited to be joined by Dr. Amy Peeler. So great to have you, Amy.
Amy Peeler (01:05):
So wonderful to be with you. I really look forward to this conversation. Yeah,
Angela Weszely (01:08):
So Amy is the Kenneth t Wener chair of Biblical studies at Wheaton College and a priest in the Episcopal Church. And we're going to unpack all of that. Your background is not in the Episcopal Church, so you have a lot to say about uniting Christians around this conversation. And we're specifically talking in December as we approach Advent because that's when the church, all of all denominations celebrate advent. It's actually a time we come together. And what that is is celebrating how Jesus came into the world and it was through, it's a pregnancy story, right, with a lot of drama and it speaks to God's involvement in and his value for all people, which is where we can come together as Christians to have these conversations. So looking forward to diving into that as well as talking about your book. But I wanted to start with your book actually and just speak to your motivation or your passion for writing women and the gender of God.
Amy Peeler (02:09):
Yes, that's a big question and I think it's both a scholarly and a personal answer. And so scholarship wise, I have been intrigued with family themes in the New Testament really since my dissertation. Maybe this is just a given for Christians, God is our Father where children of God. But that was something I pressed into particularly in the epistle to the Hebrews, and I wanted to keep exploring. It's actually quite radical that we are brought into God's family and at the same time a lot of that family language is gendered masculine, father and son and fields of experience that would've been pertinent for men in the first century world. They were the ones that more likely were to get educated and to inherit. So for a long time I wondered where do women find their place in this story of God's family? And so through that exegetical and scholarly work, I of course stumbled upon the story of Mary, which sits at the center of Christian faith.
(03:18):
And I think had I grown up in a different pocket of Christianity, I might've known that from the beginning, but myself, like many Protestants just don't do a whole lot of attention to Mary. And so that came very late in the work for me. The other half is more personal, both in my own life of navigating the world of theology as a woman and there aren't as many women more now than there were when I started. I'm grateful for mentors ahead of me, but also interacting almost truly every day with young female students who sometimes kind of lightly sometimes in tears ask this same question, do I belong in Christianity? This faith seems like it's for the guys. Where do I fit? And so I was motivated by my own intellectual interest and then also my deep concern to say to those young women, you belong here. I needed the biblical support to say that with power.
Angela Weszely (04:21):
Wow. We're going to talk more about how this ties into abortion, unintended pregnancy, which uniquely impact women, but let's stop with that experience of women and unpack that a little bit in saying that because of all the language or because of the way this looks in a first century context, women feeling like, do I really belong? Do you see that I guess happening in certain denominations more than others? Is this across the board? Is it more younger women that you're seeing college age come through? Is it women our age? What is that? Because personally I've never had that experience, but since I started talking to people about your book, there's even some people on my team. I asked that exact question and I didn't know they had asked that question. It's not something we talk about. So I thought I'd just camp on that a bit and have you expound on that. Certainly.
Amy Peeler (05:11):
Exactly. No, that's such a wonderful recognition, and especially when we're talking about gendered issues, there is a temptation to then divide the world into these camps. Oh, all women must feel this way. And I have loved in my traveling and speaking, just last week I was at a university where I met a woman, maybe just one generation above me who said much the same thing. Wow, I'm just not bothered that most of the church leadership is male. And I just never questioned that God loved me as a female. And then across the table from her was someone who had been crying because of the way she experienced this very differently. That's such a great reminder that even in gendered questions or topics, each individual person might approach this differently. So I don't know that it's generational. I mean, I work with college students primarily, and so that's the demographic that I see.
(06:11):
But I also don't think that one denomination or one group of denominations are more guilty of exclusion than others. I need to be cautious in how I say that. But even those denominations that may be on paper, say we affirm women, there are still struggles for women to get the employment that they desire. Kind of a stained glass ceiling still exists. And conversely, you can find churches that may not have explicit allowance for women to be in leadership, and yet the women in the congregation feel very empowered to do the ministries that they are called to. So it's pretty complex and you really have to enter in individual to individual and situation by situation. Now, I think there are some overarching structural issues that need to be paid. How is power distributed? It's a great question to ask, but when you get on the ground of any one church or one group of people, you have a variety of experiences. So I've learned, I can't make assumptions about how people might enter into this conversation. You're
Angela Weszely (07:21):
Right. Then it leads to stereotypes and shuts down conversation. And I had a reaction because I actually am not exactly like that woman. I didn't say I've never experienced it in the church. So that's also I have experienced in the church. It's part of my story where I felt I didn't even dream that I could be in ministry because I was a woman, but it's never bothered me in the narrative of father and son. So that's even a distinction, and that's what my colleague was saying. Even reading the creation story and take the experience of the church aside, there is something in the biblical narrative that causes some women to feel excluded. And I did not realize that until I heard you say it on another podcast until I've started talking to people about this book. So I think we can get hung up on my experience in the church and that actually can cause division. But you taking us back to scripture is actually a place to unite us where we can say, yeah, I can see as a woman, once you said it, I was like, I can see how women would, it is family language. That's all father son, so right, we can enter in. That's maybe I guess an easier place to enter in than even speaking about our experience in the church. I dunno if you've found that.
Amy Peeler (08:31):
No, that is such a good word. Unsurprisingly, I agree with you as a biblical scholar, let's get back to the Bible because we share it. Our church experience is all over map because that's humans, right? Humans can be great and not so great, but the biblical text we share even across denominations now, our interpretations would be different, but the words, we share the words, and that's a powerful place where we can come together. I love being in situations where I've sat across the table from Catholic brothers and sisters, Orthodox brothers and sisters. We have a lot of theological church history, church differences, but we share this story. And so how could we find those places of agreement and overlap? And that's actually my story as well. I was finding such power and encouragement in this idea that God is our father, but it was by reading the testimony of other women that I recognized their critiques and questions are not from out of left field. They're not kind of crazy. No, these are legit. They are having a legitimate reaction to texts. It's not my own, but I really want to listen well to them. But yet I was able to say, especially to more extreme versions of feminists that would reject scripture, don't give up yet. There's good here. And of course I just joined many other scholars who are doing the same kind of work,
Angela Weszely (09:53):
But I love that you've been able to have these conversations across what would be traditional divides that people would back away from, right?
Amy Peeler (10:01):
Yeah, right, exactly.
Angela Weszely (10:03):
So now we'll go to the topic we talk about, which is the Christians approaching abortion, unintended pregnancy, and wanted to start unpacking. How do you see your passion, or even if you want to start unpacking the experience of Mary and how you've seen that, how does that connect to some of these more tender women specific issues that again, women can feel like, I don't think the church is going to see me when I'm facing an unintended pregnancy or after I've had an abortion. I think that is a uniquely, not that men don't struggle with going to the church too, they do statistically, but I think it's a unique experience for women. The fear of judgment has to do with them, partly has to do with them being women and then being pregnant. Being pregnant. And so how does Mary, and I just can't wait for you to unpack this because I've heard to another podcast, I'm so excited for our listeners hear this. How does understanding the family structure that you talked about and Mary's role, help us approach conversations like this from a place of commonality, not divisiveness?
Amy Peeler (11:04):
Exactly, yes. Yes. It was fascinating to me that as my research was progressing and it took multiple years to get my mind around the sources kind of formulate what I was thinking I wanted to say. At the same time, of course, our country and the church had been really divided on all kinds of issues, but even on the issue of unintended pregnancies and abortions, the lines were so stark, and I found myself really frustrated. I didn't want to belong to either extreme.
Angela Weszely (11:43):
I hear you on that. We agree on that,
Amy Peeler (11:46):
And that's why when I learned about you and what you're doing, I was like, oh, finally someone. But really, I didn't know how to process that. I was like, there is ugliness and I'm going to share my position here. I hope I'm not offending anyone, but I'm just going to tell how I read the situation. Absolutely. There is ugliness on both sides, and maybe I found myself most frustrated with Christians who didn't seem to display the fruit of the spirit in these conversations. Although I knew their desire was for life, it didn't look like they were talking about it like Jesus would it seemed. And so I was very frustrated, felt like, oh, I had very much identified as pro-life being younger, growing up. I couldn't identify that way anymore, but I didn't know what to do with that. So I felt a bit lost.
(12:35):
And at the same time, I'm doing all of this exegetical work with the story of Mary, and I think in two ways the Lord was so faithful to show me new insights for that frustration. On one hand, as you have articulated, Mary was in a very precarious situation, and I think we are so familiar with the Christmas story at times, and that's a lovely thing on some ways, but wow, we need to really do that work of waking ourselves up. What would this have sounded like to a first reader or what was this like for her to go through? She has no guarantees. When Gabriel comes to her, all he says is, you will bear a son. He will reign forever on the throne of his father, David. Gabriel does not say, you're going to be fine. You're going to make it through this. He doesn't mention Joseph, right?
(13:27):
He doesn't mention Joseph at all. And of course we know when we put Matthew and Luke together, we know that the conversation in Luke between Gabriel and Mary has to happen first because of course that's when the conception happens there before she visits Elizabeth. By the time Joseph has this angelic vision, the conception has already happened and she had no guarantee and she had no guarantee. She had no guarantee that he would protect her, take her into his home. She had no guarantee that he wouldn't get angry and ask for her divorce or according to Deuterenomic law, even though this doesn't happen much in the first century, he could have her stoned technically according to the law in Deuteronomy. So she was saying yes, and she knew the potential costs abandonment really by him, and she still accepted, and that put her in such a dangerous situation.
(14:29):
And then of course, Matthew moves us into the Herod narrative. Again, what a precarious situation. A young woman who they are not economically at the top. We know that they're not elite because they have to give the poor person sacrifice so they're under threat in an empire. This is such a picture. It gives us a Christian vision. I think of a young woman who might find her way into our congregation, who in my small amount of time of work in this movement in graduate school, I immediately recognized this is largely an economic issue. It is largely those who are on the margins who don't have enough, who are faced with these hard choices and the dangers that could come to them, the precariousness of their whole lives amplified with an unintended pregnancy. Our Lord went through this as well. He was the baby of an unwed mother.
(15:31):
And if we forget that, we might be tempted to judge or disparage, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. If we lived in the first century and didn't know the Bible, we might be tempted to judge Mary and her child. So that is one set of eye-opening. Of course we should be compassionate, but not just in a general way. We should be compassionate because this is our story we follow. This is our Lord's story. The second feature of her story that was truly transformative for my thinking on this issue is the way in which God respects her agency. When Gabriel comes, he does say, you will bear, you will have a son. But notice that that's in the future tense. It has not happened yet. Let's have a thought experiment. He could have come and said, you're blessed, grace be with you. The Lord is with you.
(16:35):
You are pregnant. You are going to have the Messiah. It's future. It hasn't happened yet. And then in her conversation with Gabriel, she's perplexed. She's disturbed. She's not immediately grabbing onto the honor of being the mother of the Messiah. She's thoughtful. She asks a question which allows him to say, yeah, this is not a Messiah like you might've imagined. Your child will be holy, called son of God. And so once she hears that, then he says, Elizabeth has had this miraculous pregnancy, not at the same level as yours would be, but it is still miraculous. God can do anything. And that's such a powerful statement. Nothing is impossible with God. And the narrative could have ended there kind of like, oh, I guess nothing's impossible if God can make a virgin into a mother, but Luke tells us then that Mary gives a verbal response, she gives consent, she says yes, and then the angel doesn't leave.
(17:42):
Then the last line of that narrative is that only after her answer does Gabriel depart. He waits to hear what she has to say, will she accept or not? And so what clicked for me in a deep and transformative way is that any stance I take on this very complex topic must be motivated by compassion for the life of the unintended pregnancy, for the life of the mother. And it seems to me I cannot compromise on the agency of the mother. If our Lord who can do all things, God doesn't have to ask humans about what God is going to do, but God ask Mary, I must also respect the agency of the women who find themselves in this situation. That doesn't change where I am, but it puts me into I think a very fruitful middle space.
Angela Weszely (18:46):
Well, you're talking about nuance and you're talking about holding seemingly opposing biblical truths together and asking God to shake that all out, which is not how you would say it as a scholar.
Amy Peeler (19:01):
No, that's good. That's good.
Angela Weszely (19:03):
But putting them together. And so if I can stitch together a couple things, you said it's so fascinating. So first you said I was pro-life. I couldn't identify as that anymore. So I wanted to ask you why. And it might be tied to these other things, so that's why I'm going to stitch 'em together. There's this picture you're talking about with Mary that we can be guilty of just saying it's about the child that's being born, the Messiah, where when you were talking I wrote down it's about her being valued by God as well that leads to this woman and child together. And then you started talking about agency and you use the word consent, which then puts us in this whole other place. And so I don't know if I'm stitching together the right three things, but those were my thoughts just about this, seeing the woman, valuing the woman and how maybe that wasn't your experience before in this issue and how the Mary story, I don't know, has brought you to this different place of wrestling. Sounds like you're wrestling so
Amy Peeler (20:11):
Well, Angela. That's a great question. I don't know that I'm wrestling any longer with how I think about it. I think I'm wrestling with then what actions should I take to live out of my new conviction? Got it. Because the political path, I don't think yet been plowed for us of how we hold these things together and then what steps we take. That's where I feel like I'm struggling, but I feel pretty settled. Although I always want to be a person who's learning. I want to be open to correction, but I feel fairly settled of I've got to hold these things together because scripture does, God has done. So that's good
Angela Weszely (20:55):
Clarification.
Amy Peeler (20:56):
Were you asking me to follow up a little bit on those three
Angela Weszely (20:59):
Threads? Yeah, those threads I pulled on. Do you see commonality or how did that work for you? Because those were just the three things that kind of went off in my brain as you were speaking.
Amy Peeler (21:10):
Certainly, certainly. Are you okay? Are your listeners okay with mentioning some politics?
Angela Weszely (21:19):
Yes. So that's a great point. I don't, don't take a stance on politics, but we can talk about it. And that's what I love about these conversations. This is a space to try and do that. How do you and I try and do that in a way that would bring Christians together? So go for it. Got it. Let's
Amy Peeler (21:36):
Do it. Okay. Because that's pretty key in my transformation. I do respect that both political parties in America have some great things and have some not great things. I was fairly non-committal previous to 20 15, 20 16. But my conviction, and I would love to have a conversation if someone sees this differently, I'm sure I could learn, but my deep conviction is that the support of Trump crosses a line. His derogatory statements and treatments toward women are unconscionable to me. And so when the pro-life movement was willing to participate in his campaign, that was a line I could not cross. That's when I felt most alienated from that movement.
Angela Weszely (22:30):
2016. Yep.
Amy Peeler (22:31):
Yeah, yeah. Which I don't imagine that I'm alone. No,
Angela Weszely (22:36):
You are not. And that's your care for women. That's what you're talking about. It's that yes, yes, yes. It's because of that deep value.
Amy Peeler (22:44):
Exactly. I mean because by that point, although I hadn't finished my book, but this was a huge part of my vocation and I would never be able to be close at all to that campaign. So then the second thread does seem right to me. If we only focus upon the life, the infant, and you're going to have to tell me if my language is not right here.
Angela Weszely (23:13):
No, it's about figuring out how to have the conversation. Exactly. Sure,
Amy Peeler (23:17):
Sure. The new life that's just nonsensical. You cannot separate that new life from its mother. And for me, theologically, this has been radical. Of course, Jesus is Lord Jesus is my savior. I am not falling guilty toward elevating Mary as another deity, but by God's choice, God made her a necessary part of how salvation unfolds. And so we can never have a conversation about salvation without her presence in that conversation. Now, we don't always have to focus on her, but when we say Jesus, we are talking about a God becoming human and God becoming human through her. And so any action, political action that can focus on the life without focusing on the mother, and I know maybe those to the right of me politically would say, no, we are focusing on both. We really truly could. And these things become so emotional, right? That's why I think conversation is hard but necessary.
(24:33):
It's just really difficult to talk about these things, but it seems to me to just practice good sense. We have to keep the mother and the new life together. You can't untangle them. And then finally, I very intentionally use the word consent. I first and foremost do that as a biblical scholar because as you are aware, as your listeners would be aware, in the ancient world, there were lots of gods who raped women or lots of stories about this. And so even in the writing of the New Testament in the first century, it was important for Luke to disassociate the incarnation from those stories. He needed to show that God was not transgressing or using Mary, but that she was given consent. And then in God's good providence, I do think we have resources for contemporary conversations. We've had a number of students write about the impact this might have on how Christians should think about sexual assault. Again, they're Donna direct correspondence, but we have some deep truths here that can translate to a number of complicated issues.
Angela Weszely (25:48):
Oh my gosh. So we will talk about the abortion things, but I want to stop right here with consent. I did. Just as you are speaking, I just want to say that again and have our listeners think about this. It was so important for God to show that he is not like these other gods, that the raping of women is demonic and it's not the God of the Bible and that we stand as a church and say, we are not going to tolerate this or make excuses for it
Amy Peeler (26:19):
Precisely that
Angela Weszely (26:20):
God did that. And so I think what's so beautiful is you're right, even that issue, people can go back and forth. They can make it divisive, but you have just pointed us to the character of our God in scripture that it was so important. I'm getting shocked. It was so important to him that women would know what he was like
Amy Peeler (26:41):
Exactly.
Angela Weszely (26:41):
And how important they are to him. And we have to come together about that. I mean, that's just exactly how can we not, and I hope women hear that, and I hope men hear that, and we create safe places for that because I don't like how weird and wonky, that's one where I'm like, we should all agree on this. And I'm shocked when Christians don't.
Amy Peeler (27:04):
Yes. Yes. And I mean, I found such beautiful resources in all trajectories of Christian tradition. I collected statements from Catholic and Orthodox and Protestant of all states. Nobody disagrees on this. Everyone says, oh, Mary freely says yes. Now of course, that's a freedom that's arising out of God's grace. But everyone agrees. She gives this fiat, this acceptance, this is not forced on her. So we all agree and the generations behind us agree. And that's a rich thing to celebrate and to motivate us toward unity in a conversation that non-religious spaces are still deeply confused about. It seems, or it's very contentious. I think Christianity actually has something incredibly positive to offer here.
Angela Weszely (28:03):
I mean, would that We could be a light in this, right? We can be the first see healing how God can bring healing in this. Oh, so powerful. Okay. Not my specialty, but obviously important to me. And you brought it up and it is tied. I do feel like the issue of how the church has responded to abortion is tied to how the church has responded to women in general. So that makes sense that these are adjacent issues. And Mary, I guess that's the thing too. Going back to it was so important for God to say these things to women and to all of us by choosing Mary. I just love how you highlight it and bring it up because it really is demonstrating who he is, which is a question I have for later. So we'll get to that. Okay. Before we're going to take a quick break, but I do want to follow up on the political conversation.
(29:00):
I think what you said was so good, so it is true. And tell me if this is what you think politically, both parties seem to focus primarily on laws that are either for the child or for the woman. We are not seeing a lot of collective, we could see collective political action that creates support for both the women and the child. We haven't yet. Exactly right. No. And so then you'd gladly that political. So you're faced with this political decision because neither party is doing either thing. And it's so interesting because you potentially did offend people on both sides of the issue, which is great because you are such this common ground. Your heart is common ground. But I know how polarized this is that when you say, I can't identify as pro-life, there are people listening who would say, oh, that means you are laundry list.
(30:01):
You're for abortion. You're for abortion up until time of delivery. It's interesting by you just saying that, and I know that's not what you meant, but we're just calling out when we try to have these conversations. That's what someone hears. And then five minutes later you used words like life and mother, which would cause Christians who are on the pro-choice side to say, oh, well, you're just pro-life. And so isn't that interesting? You're holding a complex theological view. You're trying to apply it to politics. But this is why we have to be able to have the conversation and not just shut each other out when we hear one thing. And I've just had so many conversations where I say one thing and I can actually almost see a shade of distrust going down in someone's eyes. Oh my goodness. And that's how I learned it the hard way. What did I just say? I'm trying to tell you that I'm holding both of these together, but we don't have a paradigm for a group of people that can do that. And that's what we're trying to create in the GRA community. So I actually love, so cool how you explained it because you just illustrated, this is the journey we're trying to go on together where we can sit across from people. And someone on either side could say to you, Amy, what did you mean by that?
Amy Peeler (31:17):
Precisely, right.
Angela Weszely (31:19):
But we don't do that yet. So I love that you said both things and we could point that out to this is why it's so important to have common theology, common language we're also trying to create so we can have those conversations. Exactly.
Amy Peeler (31:32):
Exactly. So I
Angela Weszely (31:33):
Don't know how you feel about that.
Amy Peeler (31:35):
No, I think that's so true and that's why these conversations ideally should not be monologues. When you give along monologue, people have kind of gone off in their own thought world about what you must be, but when you can have, and it's like we need rules of engagement, that's great. I'm going to say three sentences and then I'm going to pause. Do you want to ask me any words in those three sentences? Let's make sure. It's almost like we have to do it in these very small bite size, but that means sitting across from one another, that means a vulnerability to again be in situations where one's emotion and passion. These are not where you just kind of sit gently, like your stomach is going to hurt in these conversations. And is that a display of what God calls us to the compassion of God? The word for compassion in the scriptures literally means your kidneys or your vow, you feel unsettled when you're doing this work because it's
Angela Weszely (32:38):
Righteous and it's important. Absolutely. We're going to take a break and talk about how we can have more of these conversations and then we'll come back with Dr. Amy Peeler and talk more about Mary and Advent. We'll be right back with more from our guest. But I wanted to let you know about an opportunity we have from now until the end of the year to reach even more people with this message. This podcast is powered by an organization called ProGrace. We are a 5 0 1 C three nonprofit who thinks that the problem with the abortion conversation happening right now is that Christians have a politically centered response, and we think the solution is to have a Jesus-centered response so that we can become a united safe community where people can experience God. And our vision is that as we reflect his grace, he will create pathways of hope for those people with this lived experience.
(33:32):
And so I was just talking with an organization leader. We work with pregnancy organizations and churches and individuals. We work with people who don't feel at home in either their pro-life or pro-choice space and want to be part of this community of people living out grace and community. And so I was talking with a leader of a pregnancy organization who said, I didn't even know you guys existed. They had been working so hard to get their staff aligned with this idea of valuing all people equally and leading with grace in this conversation because it can be so divisive. And they'd been doing all this work on their own and didn't know that ProGrace had already put together this conversation for their team, and they were like, we're so excited to join your community. We just wish we'd known about you sooner. And so this organization has multiple locations.
(34:20):
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(35:10):
So there'll be more information at the end of the podcast as well in the notes for you to consider partnering with us this year. All right. So Amy, we've touched on this, but I really want to circle back and let you go deeper in it because I think there's so much here. And that is the idea of how a right understanding of the incarnation and Mary's role in it leads us to a more clear understanding of and his character in general. But then specifically, I know I've heard you speak before about how we can have conversations across the gender divide, right? God's equal value for women and men. So really about what's it show us about who he is and then how's it offer a pathway for us moving forward in this hard issue that I believe God is doing something right. We can see by another one just came out this week with another pastor who for decades had been accused of sexual assault. I've just never seen so much. And so it makes me feel like, alright, Lord, he's wanting to bring healing, right? He's
Amy Peeler (36:14):
Exactly
Angela Weszely (36:15):
Allowing us to come to the surface. So it's like we're in advent but dealing with all this ugly stuff coming out. So how does it lead us to a better understanding of who God is and how he's giving us a path forward?
Amy Peeler (36:28):
Absolutely. That's a real key question. In my own research, I was discovering this powerful story in Mary that she willingly gives her body that then God calls her to use her mind to teach Jesus. Right after Jesus is in the temple, he goes back home with Mary and Joseph, and Luke tells us that he submits to both of them and only in submitting to them does he grow in wisdom. And so God has said, not only am I inviting your gift of your body, but your gift of all that it takes to mother Jesus. And then also she's a proclaimer. She's at Pentecost preaching the gospel alongside the other followers of Jesus. If a listener's like, how is that true? Go read Acts one 14 where Mary is waiting for the spirit and then Acts two where Peter said, what you have seen here today is sons and daughters testifying of Christ.
(37:32):
She's there. And so this full life of hers that shows God's honoring of women at the center of the Christian affirmation. And yet I knew that if I stopped there and if God does all these great things for women, but if we still have this nagging sense that God is this kind of big dude in the sky, and again, most people I don't think believe that. And yet there are often assumptions if you ask someone, is God a man? I'm speaking of God the Father, the train God. They'll say, oh no. But then if you ask the question, are men or women more like God, I have found that people sometimes stumble out for that question. Interesting. How do we speak of God? How do we imagine God? God seems more masculine than feminine. And of course there are times in the scriptures that God has depicted as the mother hen or the one who bore Israel.
(38:39):
But those, let's be honest, those are few and far between. I'm going to trust you on that lot since you're a biblical scout. Exactly. They're present, but they're not freaking. So I knew that I needed to do more work in understanding all of this language and imagery for God. That seems very much leaning toward the man side of an equation. And if we go back to basics, God is God. God is not a creation. God is the creator. Jesus tells us in his conversation with the Samaritan woman, God is spirit. God is not embodied until Jesus does this. The sun does this gracious act of taking on flesh. All humans are made in God's image. And I know we refer to that passage in Genesis all of the time, but that not only tells us about humans, that tells us something about God, that God is not more or less one or the other.
(39:41):
God encompasses all of the qualities that we describe then as masculine or feminine. And so I knew I needed to interrogate maybe some unstated assumptions that among some, again, as we talked about in the beginning, maybe not everyone carries this with them, but I've discovered a lot of people do. A lot of people do wonder about the identity of God, that God is infinitely different than any human. And so when we call God Father, we are affirming God's grace to be in relationship with us. God's provision for us, but we are not imagining human fathers and then projecting up to God first and foremost. God is our Father because God is the father of Jesus Christ. And when we are in relationship with Jesus, then God becomes our father. And why does scripture give us the language for Father? Or maybe I should put the question this way.
(40:41):
Often I'm asked, and I love to read about this, well, can we call godmother or should we call godmother? Again, we have some of that imagery in scripture, but here's why I have argued that we don't have to do that to include women because when I say God is my father, I know God is my father because of Jesus Christ. And why did Jesus call God his father and not his mother? Because he already had a mother. Oh my gosh. Mary is his mother. And so of course Jesus' relationship with God is eternal, but the way that relationship is expressed in the incarnation reveals to us the place that God said, I'm going to hold a place for women in my story, in my salvation. And so when I say God is my Father, I recall all of the story of how Jesus came, including preeminently, the role that Mary played in that account. Now can you, so that gives maybe just a taste no of how we can complicate this vision of God.
Angela Weszely (41:48):
That's so good. And I know I've got a follow-up question. I'm interrupting the middle, but I want to stop here because I heard you say it on another podcast and it really struck me, and you said it differently here today. So God could have created salvation any way he wanted, right? I mean there's no limit. Exactly. You don't see any limit in scripture. So the fact that he chose to have a mother for the son of God.
Amy Peeler (42:17):
Exactly.
Angela Weszely (42:18):
That's the, that's it. That's,
Amy Peeler (42:21):
That's it.
Angela Weszely (42:22):
There was intentionality and I think stopping there and saying, we skimm over it in the advent story, but you're helping us say no. There was intentionality. Didn't have to do it that way. No. What's that say about him that he did and his value for women?
Amy Peeler (42:37):
Precisely, precisely. For me, this is I have struggled for most of my adult life, where do women fit into church? And I've spent more hours than I could ever count on one Timothy two and one Corinthians 11, some of these other important passages, we need to think about them. But the way in which God has revealed to me the simple truth of the gospel, Jesus, the sun became human for us. That to me, that is a bedrock that no one can ever take away from me. No one can ever say women are second class or not as, I'm sorry. Look at Jesus. And when you look at Jesus, you see his body that came from Mary, and this is how God chose to save the world settles it. It's the mic drop moment. I have never since the moment of realizing that questioned if God has a value for women, it's incontrovertible.
Angela Weszely (43:36):
It is. And it is just like God, that there's all these arguments happening around the Timothy, right? We're all here. And what's he do for you? He lifts, he goes even bigger. He's like, oh wait, I'm going to take it even bigger. And in the salvation story, he's embedded, which allows us, and we can sort out the other things because at the top, the bigger picture, precisely the bigger kingdom reality, it's a kingdom reality that stands far above any of these problematic passages or divisive conversations happening. And if we could unite, so how do we unite Christians, men and women around that regardless of the egalitarian complimentarian, all those arguments? Of course, of course. How do we rise above? How could this help us in our churches? How could this part of the healing God wants to bring that we talked about?
Amy Peeler (44:34):
Yeah. And I think it's very important to name that while I believe I've been called to dominantly more conservative spaces where women have not had a voice or have not had a presence, I do not mean to go to the other extreme and suggest at all. Well, now for a time, men need to sit down and be quiet so women can be in charge for a while, right? No, I think the way in which God has chosen to accomplish salvation is absolutely Mary had to be. Now, again, I want to be very careful here. God could have saved us in any way but God, when God said, I'm going to do incarnation, then by the way in which God has designed our biology, this is also every time a baby is born, we're reminded, oh yeah, God designed all of human biology this way so that God could dwell among us, could take on flesh in this way when God made that decision, she is necessary.
(45:31):
And then how does the Son come into the world as a man? And I'm really just citing from the church fathers, several of them will say, men don't despair. Jesus was a male. Women don't despair. Jesus was born of a woman. Wow. It really is a return to the creation, male and female bear, the image of God that comes together in new creation, in Mary birthing Jesus. If the Savior and often feminist theology is that, well, could we have had a female savior? Again, God could do whatever God wants to, but because of how human biology works, Jesus's maleness is the way that you are reminded of, Hey men, you're a part of this story and Mary giving of her flesh so that he could become incarnate. Women, you're a part of this story. Nobody's left out. And that's always how God works. This to me is the unity. If we could come around the table and say, God is for us in Jesus Christ, for men and for women, for our friends who are intersex or have gender dysphoria, they're not left out. Let's have compassion and listen to them. But male and female, all God's image and Jesus is the ultimate display of that creation truth.
Angela Weszely (47:04):
Wow. And you are describing this beautiful both and equal value, and you lay out the scriptural precedent for it. And even when you were talking about pregnancy, we talk about that in pro grace, that God's design of pregnancy is you have to help both. They're intertwined. And so it's just who he is that he values equally. And us having to, if we're not doing that in some way, whether it's a reaction, then he's got to align us to his heart because it's just the common theme coming back in this whole conversation is his incredible value for all people where we divide, he unites. And what a beautiful thing to contemplate at Advent. Yes.
Amy Peeler (47:54):
And it's a message I proclaim. It's also a message I need to hear.
Angela Weszely (47:58):
Oh, same. I think
Amy Peeler (47:59):
That's part of the answer for the anger that I fear feel about politics. God values all people. That means even people that are on the opposite side of where I want to be politically. And so if I get on any kind of high horse and I'm better, no, the Lord then calls me, Hey, I love them equally. You better not stand in judgment that is for me alone. And so it is both an encouragement and a challenge for us
Angela Weszely (48:26):
All. It is always, yes. It's a picture of grace. Thank you. Thank you for that. Exactly. Well, and I asked Amy at the break if she would close us with an advent prayer because she is, she's a priest, and I love that you're a scholar and a priest and we've so appreciated your thoughts, but the scholarly is not divided. Actually, I've had these spiritual experience listening to you talk about theology. So I thought it'd be great for you to close us with a prayer for advent because this is a special time of celebrating that. So I'm just going to close when you're done, Amy. So Dr. Amy Peeler is going to close us out with this blessing,
Amy Peeler (49:03):
A very short introduction to this prayer. If we get a chance to show some pictures, I have an icon, a modern icon, and anyone can see it. It's Eve and Mary and one your listeners might remember that at the fall when sin enters the world, there are curses placed upon the ground and then there are burdens upon humanity. But the serpent, this kind of wildly animal that tempted Adam and Eve to sin, God says, yeah, you're going to try to bite at the heel of humanity. And this is fascinating. This is Genesis three 15 and 16, which I think is a great, it's in the same neighborhood of John three 16. So it's kind of the gospel in Genesis, but God says there the seed of the woman, her descendant will crush the head of the serpent. It is the first, it's on the second page of the Bible, usually.
(50:02):
Wow. The first rhino that a virgin will conceive and bear a son, and we will call his name Emmanuel and he will defeat God's enemy. It's at the very beginning. Amazing. And so as sin came into the world, so has redemption come into the world. And so in the prayer of before we have Lord's supper, there's a few different prayers, but we take up this one in Advent because it turns our attention to the way that God saved the world. The prayer says this to God, we give thanks to you, oh God, for the goodness and love which you have made known to us in creation, in the calling of Israel to be your people, in your word, spoken through the prophets and this above all in the word made flesh, Jesus, your Son, for in these last days, you sent him to be incarnate from the Virgin Mary, to be the Savior and redeemer of the world in Him, you have delivered us from evil and made us worthy to stand before you. In Him, you have brought us out of error, into truth, out of sin, into righteousness, out of death, into life. The victory has already been one in Christ, and we are called to implement it as his fellow kingdom builders in this world now.
Amy Peeler (51:28):
Amen.
Angela Weszely (51:29):
Amen. Thank you.
(51:34):
Thank you so much for being part of this conversation today, and thank you for considering partnering with ProGrace from now until the end of the year to reach this $25,000 matching gift. I am so encouraged by what I see happening this growing community of people like us who want to show up like Jesus, not a political party. And so thank you for considering how you could help amplify this message, how we can reach even more people in the new year so that we become a visible, safe community demonstrating God's love and value for all people. Thank you so much.
