Angela (00:05):
Welcome to Pro Grace on abortion, real Talk, no Politics. I'm Angela Wesley, CEO and Co-founder of ProGracece. We are a community of people who want to have the conversation around abortion. Now, it's not currently happening in our churches because there's so much tension around the debate and having a civil conversation is hard. The church is divided, but it's time to come together. And the way we'll do that is to model our approach after Jesus, not politics. If you feel like you don't really belong in either the pro-life or pro-Choice Camp and you think surely Jesus has a better way, then welcome to the ProGrace community a place you can belong. Hi, and welcome back to the Pro Grace Podcast. I am so excited to be here today with Kristen Longberg. Hey, Kristen.
Kristen (01:03):
Yes. Hello. I'm so excited to be here.
Angela (01:06):
Yeah, so I'll tell our community what we're going to be talking about today. So Kristen is the COO of Living Alternatives Pregnancy Resource Center, and we're going to have a conversation today about the good things that God is doing and the hope in this conversation. I've just been really, it's an election year, right? We're already two months in everything I see on the news. Kristen just makes me feel icky or stressed and seeing Christians act and talk in ways that don't look a lot like Jesus. I can get overwhelmed, but I get to spend my time with people like you, leaders who are called to really lean in to the people who are experiencing this and not the politics, and wanted to have you on today to talk about that hope. So I'm really excited for our conversation.
Kristen (01:55):
I'm excited to be here and get to talk with you more.
Angela (01:58):
So Kristen, I did want to just ask how you got into this field. We met because I reached out, I think to your CEO and said, this is what we're doing at ProGrace. And you wrote back saying, oh my gosh, I've been trying to do the exact same thing with my team to think and talk in a nonpolitical way. And so just immediately there was that connection, which I think is part of the hope that God is doing this in a lot of people. We just maybe don't know each other or we don't know what's going on. So walk us through your story of how you got to this place.
Kristen (02:31):
Absolutely. I actually feel like I need to start back with my story before I even joined Living Alternatives, and that took place, probably started in 2014. I was working in social work field in my community. I absolutely loved it. It was really incredible. But I really started to just feel a tug and a pull, and one of the biggest things that was a challenge for me is that I couldn't bring faith into the conversations of the women I was working with because I was in particular working with young first time moms in our community, and I could pray before I went to go meet with them. I could pray after, but that wasn't a part of what the conversations that I could actually have with them. That became a struggle for me. So I began to just search and I started going, and then I was wondering, okay, Lord, what do you have for me?
(03:18):
What are you calling me to? So I began to pray, Lord, break my heart for what breaks yours because I know there's so many things that breaks God's heart. But I just said, father, whatever you are going to call me in whatever field, whatever direction you're going to pull me in the gifts and talents that I have specifically better than I know. So just show me and lead me in that direction. And starting that journey, that prayer led to probably almost a year of a process where the Lord kind of led and brought me to one step after another where I found living alternatives and I was in a job actually that I had kind of been led to, thought that was the direction I was going. Absolutely loved. It was moving on to a state level position, which I was so excited. Oh, I could have a greater impact, a greater reach when I heard of the Pregnancy Resource Center in my community and I stopped by to drop off some donations and said, oh, I'd love to meet your director.
(04:23):
At that time, the person there said, oh, we actually don't have one right now. We're in the process of looking. I was like, oh, great, I'll reconnect later. And I walked back out to my car and it was like face palm to the forehead. I felt like the Holy Spirit was like, Nope, go back around. This is what I have for you. This is what you have been looking for. This is the direction you go. So I paused and I didn't, those moments, I didn't even listen very well that that was the Holy Spirit speaking. So I called my husband first, of course, instead of going back to the Lord and going, was this you? I called my husband and he was like, well, if that's what you felt like the Lord said to do, go. So I went back in, asked for information. The next thing I knew, I became the director of that center and the Lord has just opened up more and more doors where now I have the privilege of being the chief operations officer.
(05:16):
And because I had nothing to lose through my interview process, I found out that the organization was asking the same exact things. So I really got to join at a pivotal moment where we just began on a journey together, and I've had the privilege of helping shape and lead that. I'll say it's all led by our CEO because that was on her heart first. But it's just been an incredible journey to kind of step into that and see how the Lord has prompted and even started stirring in hearts and even the way he is going before and planning and orchestrating long before we even can see it on the horizon. Yeah.
Angela (05:59):
Well, if you are okay with this, I'd love to unpack because as soon as you said you were a social worker first my mind started going to, oh, what did you think when you walked into, if anybody Googles Christian pregnancy resource centers? There's a lot of information out there of very well-intentioned people, and I've had a lot of conversations over the years. No one is trying to harm women. None of the people I've talked to at the same time, those practices that well-meaning people are doing are not meeting the needs of women and in fact are causing women to feel marginalized. And they were in some times a bait and switch. They didn't know what they were going to get when they went in there. And for me, it's been the principles of social work and lining that up with how Jesus had conversations that helped me rethink it. But I would love to hear what were some of the things that bothered you from a Christian social worker perspective where I'm guessing you knew the needs of women who were facing an unintended pregnancy because of your work previously. What bothered you that, well-meaning Christians were missing, and I'm asking this because I think we need to step back all of us, this is not just about pregnancy centers, but it's about churches and all of us as Christians. What were we missing in the way they were trying to serve women?
Kristen (07:15):
That's such a great question, and the first thing that comes to mind is that in social work, we can't want it more for them than they want it themselves, and that applies to anything else within the church or within pregnancy centers. We can't want it so desperately for anybody that we are trying to serve, that we are unintentionally. I truly believe it's unintentional that we're unintentionally pushing or trying to force a set of values or opinion or expectations on somebody when they don't understand they don't have those values, they don't want that for themselves or they don't even understand what you're talking about to understand if they want it for themselves. So breaking it down and just loving someone where they're at and listening well is at the key of all of it. The other piece that I feel like is so tightly tied to it, especially as a believer, is that as Christians, we sometimes forget that Jesus has already won.
Angela (08:13):
Wow. Yeah. Okay. So I actually love that you went straight to theology because that was my experience when I came in and started talking differently or shaking things up with how we were serving women. It's a theological dilemma that Christians have, and it's based on how we think God moves. So go back to what you said first. We can't want something for someone else more than they want it for themselves. Even backing up into how God interacts with us, and in speaking of this, I'm glad you're talking about actions and we're talking about, well-meaning Christians, but you and I live in a state where there are actually laws that have been passed that impact pregnancy resource centers because enough are concerned by those practices. I have my thoughts on that. I'd love to have a conversation with you. I think some Christians look at that and say, oh, we're being persecuted. I look at that and say, why does the government feel like they have to pass laws against what Christians are doing in the name of Jesus? Is there some piece of this that we have earned or do you think we're misunderstood? How do you navigate that? Because you have nine centers and several of them are in Illinois. This impacts your staff on a daily basis. How have you guys talked about that and in terms of how we show up in our community acting like Jesus?
Kristen (09:35):
Yeah, I think that's a great question. I do think there's a couple things at play. Unfortunately, I think Christians maybe unintentionally have earned it just because of the passion that comes behind it. But sometimes if we're missing that grace piece, we're missing that ability to have a conversation about something we maybe disagree with and how strongly we may communicate things. So even if I go back to scripture, the times where Jesus got really bold and direct and aggressive almost in his language, it was for those that knew better. He overturned tables when they were taking advantage of the temple for those that should have known better. But when he was talking to the masses, when he was communicating in general, that's not how he communicated. It takes me back to a conversation I had just shortly after I started working in the pregnancy help world.
(10:32):
Someone approached me, incredible heart. I trust their heart. I absolutely do. But their thought was, I want to deck out my vehicle with one of the 10 commandments, thou shall not murder, and then I want to list your organization and I want to do, and I said, thank you, but no thank you. I appreciate your willingness to try to market for us, but no thank you to me. In that moment though I grieved that because I thought this is a person who desperately has a passion for this topic and they want to do what they can, but they're missing the fact that by putting the phrase thou not murder on the back of a minivan and drive around the entire community for everybody to see how that will come across as only judgment, no one at no point that it has the opportunity to impact it will not have their intended result.
(11:25):
Right? So that was such a heavy thing, and then it's a how do I have that conversation to help shift your mindset, help you to see that disconnect. I think I understand your heart, but your actions are going to do the opposite, and that's so alienating. I mean, I ended up throughout the years having a conversation and helping that individual really kind of see that, and it was just was such a beautiful transformation and just switch in the way they approach things. But it took time to kind of unravel some of that. The other piece with all of it is politics are heavy and all of this, there's a lot of politics woven into it. And with politics so often it's either this or that, and this isn't a topic where it can be this or that, just because this is really a topic where Satan is seeking to distort, offer some sort of counterfeit, he's seeking to kill and destroy, and he's going to start with our approach, our motives, our understanding.
(12:33):
If he can cloud our judgment, oh, he's already won. Because if he can shift us or keep us trapped somewhere, that can have a more devastating impact in a lot of ways. So it's so hard to me to really unpack because it's so interwoven with so many other things, and it's really, really complex when we start to unpack it and try to look at especially that political side of it. But we need to understand that we can have those strong beliefs, but it doesn't mean that we need to speak strongly about it all of the time either.
Angela (13:04):
Yeah, exactly. Well, and the fact that you're doing so great with these complex theological, I want to keep going if that's okay, because even what you are talking about is an understanding of grace, and I feel so strongly, this is where I'm realizing Kristen, even as we talk, we are more alike. We have been on this same journey. Grace is the answer to this, right? Grace is the answer to a person who thinks that's going to help and you showed grace to that person. And Grace is sitting with someone when you can see everything happening for them, and you can probably actually put yourself in their shoes and say, I understand how you feel. You have no option. We've let you down as a society. Even Grace as you're trying to, I can see you trying to work with your organization of people who are used to doing it one way and then having to switch to another way.
(14:04):
What do we need to do? Because I feel like so much of this conversation we yell at each other. Even that driving through the neighborhood with a big sign that's yelling, and even politicians who are making blanket laws against some organizations that we would say are doing things wrong, but others that are trying to do things right, we've lost this ability to listen. So how have you brought in Grace in all of these areas with your team, with your community? How do you bring in Grace to have people just take a beat and start listening to each other?
Kristen (14:40):
Yeah, I think that's a really fair question. Sometimes it's a hard one to answer
Angela (14:46):
So hard. It's hard.
Kristen (14:47):
But I'll say one of the first So hard. Yes. One of the first things is from an organizational standpoint, I can speak to that. First is we started, I mean we have for years, but we do a theme every year as an organization, and that theme is something we internalize and focus on all of our staff, all of our volunteers, and then it's something we push out and it's part of everything that we communicate that year, even to our donors. So quite a few years ago, our theme was Journey of Grace. I love it. So we went on a journey of Grace as an organization. So then everything we did, we talked about the need that we are all on a journey of grace. Every single one of us, no matter how far we've come in our faith, no matter where we think we're at, we are all on a journey and we all need grace.
(15:39):
So we challenged all of our staff and our volunteers to absorb that and understand their need for grace. But then as we spoke to our donors, we did the same thing and we used that language all year long. And then the following year our theme was Moments of Mercy, and we sought to have moments of mercy throughout the entire year because we also all need those moments. We need to pause, I need mercy, you need mercy. And we've just built that year after year that we really kind of try to dissect that and absorb that so we become what we say we want to and we make that a focus throughout all of our communication, all of our devotionals, all of our, I could list off so many ways that we've done that and stepped into that, which has just been really beautiful and it's really helped shape our culture. But the other thing we've done, especially I've worked really hard to communicate to our centers is I've said we need, whether it's somebody that technically we have the same values, but we're going, oh, I don't like the way you're communicating that. Whatever that looks like, we still need to earn the right to be heard.
Angela (16:46):
I love that. I even think of that relationally and actually if we had followed this to going back to the history of how Christians have done outreach to women facing unintended pregnancy, all these practices we're talking about that we don't agree with, so many of them would've fallen away if we had taken a posture of grace that we're all in the same boat, we don't have anything. I think some of this comes from a position of one up, right, here's this poor person I'm going to help. And that's actually not what's happening. We're all in the same boat. Jesus says that, but also this idea that we don't have the right to force things on anybody. And if we say we're going to provide a service where you're going to come and someone's going to listen to you and care for you, then we have a responsibility before God to provide that service.
(17:39):
So I love that that's what you do, and I love that you start with the, we have to be. I found that in our team there was an inherent stress that people had if they've been told this is the way you have to be a Christian in the pro-life space. It causes cognitive dissonance when you say no, there's actually a different way you have to become different in thinking about grace, which I love that you're doing that organizationally first. So once you're doing that, I would love to hear some specifics. What is your philosophy on how you show up for women? You've been telling me a lot of stuff you guys are doing holistically. I really feel like you have stepped back just in saying we are earning the right, you're actually stepping back and listening to her experience, and you guys have gone a long way in terms of thinking further down the path into what women and children actually need. So I'd love for you to speak either how you got there or the services you guys provide, because that's a model for us. And I want to talk about the church later and your hope you have for the church, but I think you guys are building a model that could be used by the church.
Kristen (18:45):
Yeah. Part of that honestly is it sounds so cliche and such a church answer, but we have challenged all of our centers and requested all of our centers to the point that I want to know the time for every center to start in prayer every day. Because we so often jump into our day, jump into doing things and Oh, I did my devotions at home, or I kind of prayed on the way into work, or whatever that may be. But we don't pause and maybe give absolutely everything over to the Lord every day and all of our sinners have done, I mean, all of our sinner directors are just amazing, and they have stepped in and stepped up to that challenge. And it's been incredible since we started doing that probably two years ago, the testimonies that are just outpouring from our centers that we were always a faith-based ministry.
(19:35):
We trusted that everybody were aligned, they were all believers, but when they started gathering in prayer on a regular basis in prayer to start off the day, Lord, take over this space, prepare us for every client that's going to walk in the door, whatever that may look like and the transformation that has happened and what we are seeing come out of that, we too often go into doing the things and we forget about our need to pause and surrender. And if we start with that and if we truly trust the Lord to guide and direct our steps, our actions, our thoughts, then we're good. My very first personal testimony to that was quite a few years ago at this point, but that morning we just felt, we gathered as a team when I was local with the center, we gathered as a team to pray, and we just really felt the need to pray for peace over the center that day.
(20:31):
We had a pretty full day of clients, and so we specifically prayed for peace for that day and right after the center opened as client wasn't due yet, but a young lady walked in and she, I'll never forget, she immediately just walked in and goes, is just so peaceful in here. Oh my goodness, can I just stay here for a while? And we were just like, whoa, just for her. And then she went up to the front and she said, I don't know what it is, but there is something different about this space. I just think I want to hang out here for a while. And we're like, well, one, you absolutely can, but two, what can we do for you? She ended up being a walk-in pregnancy test client. Long story short, she ended up ordering food for herself there, took a nap in a chair she needed to be invested in and cared for.
(21:22):
But just that piece of when we pause and we let the Lord guide and direct and the Holy Spirit says, pray for peace and you do, and then to watch the why and watch him answer prayer and just meet the needs of somebody, prayer is nothing like it. And so starting with prayer, truly not just saying we do or trying to, but going, it's a non-negotiable every day at this time, alarms go off on everybody's phone to remind them when it's a no. We're stepping into this with diligence and commitment that's going to transform the outcome that we go from there. I
Angela (22:00):
Hope I don't help make you forget what you're going to say after this, but I do want to stop and talk about prayer if we can. My heart is burning as you're speaking, Kristin, because what you're talking about, prayer is cliche. When we make it like God, do this. I mean, I don't know. I can pray very legalistically, right? Like, oh, if I don't ask God, he won't move. That's not the prayer you're talking about. That's not what we see in scripture. And I'm thinking of our quick prayer before we started this podcast, which I don't always do, but I just felt like, but I hardly said anything. If you remember, I was just like, you're here. I guess what I'm thinking and what you're talking about, prayer is just an invitation. You're just talking about inviting Jesus. He is already with us, but you're inviting him to manifest the fact that he's with us.
(22:52):
You're inviting him to show up, and I just feel like your illustration, he was there. I don't know. I wasn't there with that woman. I'm going to go out on a ledge and say that was partly the presence of God. She felt she probably felt peace coming off you guys because you guys weren't stressed. But I'm going to say I think Jesus was with you, and I think the highest privilege we have is to walk like that and exude the presence of Jesus everywhere we go. I mean, we've been talking about what's the answer for how Christians show up in this space? I feel like you just nailed it, and that's why I want to pause here because you're not talking about a set things we have to say or our own agenda or our own story. You're talking about a person because really grace is a person and inviting that person into everything your center does, I had to stop. It was so beautiful and profound what you were saying.
Kristen (23:50):
Well, thank you. Well, I think it goes back to even that free will that we were talking about it a little bit ago with that God gave us at the very beginning. He knows what our thoughts are. He knows what our needs are. He knows who's walking in the door, what's coming next, what's going to blindside us around the corner. He knows absolutely all of those things, and I just often imagine him just kind of waiting on the sidelines. Just let me know. I'm right here. Just let me know.
Angela (24:18):
Oh gosh. So yes, I would love to hear because people do ask me, we want to be the type of people where someone would come up to us if they were facing this or if they have questions about it. How do you coach your team to show up like Jesus from an institutional place? And even you just talked about one difference. You saw the woman with peace who camped out and ordered food. I mean, if you look online, women are saying run from Christians who are serving pregnant women, and this woman had a completely different experience. What else are you doing to have women have this type of experience that is what we'd want them to have,
Kristen (24:56):
Right? The thing the other core, well, I guess two core things that come to mind. One is that approach of earning the right to be heard. We've also taken with our communities. So one of the things we recognized quite a few years ago, and I was really part of my heartbeat, especially coming from a social work background, was we don't need to just exist and hope we will be found. We need to be out there connecting with any other community resource anywhere else that our clients could potentially also be connected to. And we need to earn the right to be heard there as well. So that forces automatically, right this process of how do we communicate who we are to this other resource that is not Faith-based, that does not have the same values that we do. How do we communicate to them and say, this is who we are, this is what we offer, and this is how we'd love to partner and collaborate with you because we care about this community and we truly do. We care about this community and we care about every single woman, child, partner, grandparent, whoever, also in the community because we want to invite them in and we want to transform lives, and it's coming from a place for us because Jesus is guiding it, not because we have values or we have political views or we have anything else. Our drive is completely different and it's heaven focused. So that's that piece that we had to really wrestle with and figure that out, which our centers have done an amazing job doing that.
Angela (26:26):
How's it going? So I was
Kristen (26:27):
Going to ask you credibility and respect in their communities.
Angela (26:30):
How have they done that?
Kristen (26:31):
Really great. It's just been going to the table. It's just how can we show up? Where can we show up? The majority of our centers get referrals from health departments, from doctor's offices, from, I mean, we've just become known as they will help you there. If they don't, they will try to connect you with who will. And that's the other thing we really had to wrestle with as centers, we need to know what our mission is. We are there for those facing unplanned pregnancies. That is our core focus. So if someone else comes in the door, we're not going to say, oh no, we can't help you. We're going to say, oh, I'm so sorry. We can't meet that need, but we do have a list of resources. Let us help connect you to some of those resources. We'll put your hand in theirs if you need to.
(27:17):
And even some of those really high need situations like domestic violence, like sexual abuse, we have even said, Hey, since you found us and you feel safe and comfortable and you shared your story here, we'll invite them in here so you don't have to go to another building. You can take one of your rooms and we'll invite them here. So we've built the relationships with all of those community partnerships as well and really sought to build trust with them so we can equally really impact and ideally meet the woman or have her know about us before she's even facing an unplanned pregnancy. That is our goal, because if she's already facing it, what are the odds? But we already want to be a known and trusted person to her before she's even facing that. So we are the first thing that comes to her mind.
Angela (28:02):
I love that.
Kristen (28:03):
So that is just at a core of some of our operation that we've stepped into.
Angela (28:08):
I love that. I love everything about that. And I love that you shared it because it ties into the last question I want to ask you about the local church and your heart and your belief for the local church. I found as a faith-based organization, we did the same thing going out in the community trying to say who we were to say to our clients, Hey, we love you and we believe God loves you. That's an expression of our faith. That is beautiful. Nobody's going to have a problem with that. I didn't find any agency in the community that had a problem with that. They would say, we'd love to refer women to churches or Christian agencies if we knew you weren't going to pressure them or you weren't going to try to manipulate them. So I think that illustration and showing how much the clients loved it, the love of God and his peace is something we can just be giving away so freely and not have to worry about all this other stuff we've unintentionally done that have messed things up for us.
(29:06):
But the church I think has a great opportunity, local churches to be that place where people know they'll be loved by God, but women continually say, I'm not going to go there for fear of judgment. And there's actually no visible support for people after an unintended pregnancy multiple ways. What is your vision? Because I know you guys, you're part of the progress community, are equipped community and you want to see the churches be exposed to the progress way of thinking. Why? What do you think can happen if churches are known as a place where women could be accepted and supported and men and their families? Why do you still have faith that the church could be that? What do you want to see happen? I get that question. So
Kristen (29:48):
We really want to see the church step into this progress concept and the difficult conversations because they're needed, right? I think the church as a whole has struggled with some of those do this, not that. And in order to, it's coming from a good place in order to help shape the future or help answer those questions, or people come in and go, well, as humans, of course, we want to do the least amount of work we can and still get the reward. I think my kids, they, what's the least amount that I can do to do my chore and then be done doing the work so I can do what I want? We internally, our kernel nature has that tendency. We fall into that trap sometimes, which that I truly believe at my core that that's just part of Satan's counterfeit. He wants us, if he can keep us in that mindset, that's going to keep us distracted from just being all in for Jesus.
(30:41):
And throughout the years, the church had trying to respond and address issues like, oh, well, are you allowed to do that? I don't know. Are you allowed to do that? Does that move you further away from God? The church has tried to answer those questions trying to support, but as a result, we have some potential legalism that has come out of it and just other challenges that the church as a whole has faced. So now it's left them with going, oh wait, there's now church hurt. People feel judged. How do we shift that? We don't know. And how is having conversations? We've got to be willing to unpack, have conversations, talk about hard things, maybe break down or understand some preconceived notions we had, but we have to do it all on the basis of scripture, not opinion. We have to lean into what does scripture tell us?
(31:30):
What did Jesus model for us? We have to go back to the source for the truth, not a regurgitated version in order to respond differently and step into these conversations. They're churches that are hungry and seeking. We are seeing that and we are hearing that. I'm currently taking our core leadership team through the transformation course or the transform course, but I have directors asking, okay, when can I start with my team? Oh, I have churches that want to do this already. When can I, and I just keep going, well, let's wait. So I love this so excited, but let's make sure we do this in the right sequence so you don't feel ill-equipped or in over your head at any point. There's churches that are hungry and asking, and if our churches are willing to step into that and be transformed and have that platform to process through and guide them, then we can connect our clients to another community where they can find Jesus, where they can find that authentic faith community that they're really needing and seeking. Because we at the centers can't be that, and that's a challenge we are honestly facing right now. We are finding that we have clients that don't want to leave. And one of the biggest challenges we're facing internally as an organization, because I have my center saying, how do I graduate a client when she's in our, we call it our Hope ProGracem, but it's for any support afterwards.
Angela (32:50):
Oh my gosh, I needed to talk to you today. I needed you to share that because I don't know if you know this, but that is exactly how ProGrace started, is we had changed the organization. We had women who needed to graduate, and we said, would they ever go to a church? And it was one of the clients in Chicago who went back to her church, which is a large church in Chicago, and said, I want you to have this group here. And that's actually where the vision came to get churches ready. I mean, I needed to hear you today because I've been doing this for so long that sometimes I'm like, are churches ever going to be ready? And I apologize to any pastors or anybody out there, but sometimes it's hard. And so for you to say, there are churches saying, yes, we want this because I have seen firsthand, we saw those groups double in size when they went to churches, when they went to churches that were actually acting like Jesus, that were full of hope and support. And so we're building this whole great, this whole ProGrace ecosystem with organizations like you and churches that are trained and organizations that churches can use for direct service afterwards. So God knew I needed to talk to you today, and hopefully those in our community will be encouraged too, that you're seeing the church ready. I think that's how I'd like to leave today. People are asking for this, okay, I can keep doing the work. I can keep having the conversations if people are asking for this.
Kristen (34:20):
Absolutely. It's so true. It's so true. I think there's so many churches out there, and there is that piece of capacity. My husband's a lead pastor and I serve in the church right alongside of him, and one of the biggest things that I see for him is that challenge, right? There's so many other things that have to be done. There's people that need to be cared for. There's other ProGracems to run. There's where do we invest our time? But that's the beautiful thing about the Transform platform is that it is there and it doesn't take a ton of extra work. And I've even recently encouraged a senior pastor find someone else to lead it. Find someone who's passionate about it. You be involved and you learn alongside whoever's a part of the group and figure out more of a grassroots way to spread it. It doesn't need to be this big, huge, oh, we need to get so many people to sign up, throw it out there, or recruit some of your leaders within the church and say, we're going to start small. Five of us, 10 of us are going to walk through this, and then we're going to seek to build another group and multiply that model. And almost that small multiplication is going to be so much more effective and sustainable than anything else.
Angela (35:26):
Amazing. Well, Kristen, I just want to thank you because when I get discouraged about things, I do think of our community of leaders. It's clear, God, he called you to do this. I loved hearing your story. He called you. You're in it for the long haul. The church can rely on leaders like you, and I love that we have this structure of parachurch organizations that care for pregnant women. You and other leaders like you are going to lead the way. And so I know it's hard, but let me say on behalf of the whole ProGrace community, thank you for what you're doing, and I just look forward to see how God's going to use you specifically and leaders like you to really usher in this change. So thanks for all you do.
Kristen (36:09):
Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. That means a lot, but so unnecessary,
Angela (36:14):
But so true. All right. Thanks everybody for listening in. I hope you feel the hope that I feel after my conversation with Kristen. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you've been inspired to see Jesus and to be part of a community where you feel at home. Join our email subscriber list to receive updates on how together we can change the Christian response to abortion. The only way we'll do that is through God's grace, which is beyond measure. I am so grateful for that. And so until next time, I am Angela Wesley on the Grace Journey with You ProGrace on Abortion Real Talk. No Politics is a production of ProGrace International.
